[carob]

Originally Posted by Colzo

Americas one of the most racist countries in the world!

If you ignore the U.K., who felt it was the "white man's burden" to actively go out and beat the crap out of any brown-skinned or black-skinned man that came their way.

We're talking about a nation that set out to exploit, conquer, and enslave people. You might argue that the British role models were other whites, such as the Romans, who also had the same idea. The French wanted a chunk of Africa, too.

And Americans were...actually Brits. They came over to America and were certainly going to destroy the native Americans and take over their land. But something interesting happened. A few men with a conscience, and a sense of purpose, and a "Bill of Rights" decided to create a country that might just become a role model for tolerance and justice.

Not an easy thing to do, and it hasn't happened yet, because power corrupts...but the ideals of Washington (who refused to become KING), Jefferson, Hamilton and the rest continue to inspire good people everywhere.

Consider this: America has been the greatest country on Earth, and the most powerful, and yet, they did not choose to enslave other countries, take over other countries, or do the kinds of things the Arabs, the Russians, the Red Chinese and the North Koreans have done. Yes, you can point to disgraces and failures with America's leaders and with its people, but the emblems of the country remain the same. The Statue of Liberty, "The Bill of Rights," the "Declaration of Independence," the speeches of Lincoln.

The race problems in the United States? Ignorant white people...some of them...mostly in the South...saw blacks as inferior. Meanwhile, in the U.K., and well beyond the 1960's, The British and the Irish, who look pretty similar, were blowing each other up. That looks just as ridiculous and repugnant to Americans as the racial situation in America does to the some Brits out there.

But back to Muhammad Ali. How old was he? How well schooled? If, in finding his way in life, he got involved with the racist element of the Muslims, he also found his way out of it. A true racist who hated whites would never have tolerated Angelo Dundee or Howard Cosell, no matter how advantageous it might be.

"Ain't no man righteous, not one." There isn't one among us who hasn't had a stereotype thought about someone else for some reason or other, or might not have a purely racial reason for not wanting "one of them" (name your religion or race) to marry into the family or come in and be boss at work. The trick is to recognize it, rise above it, and do better. I think Ali was able to do that.

One of the most interesting things about George Foreman's book was a line he inserted about race. He said that in describing his life...his friends, the people who gave him breaks, the people who were not good to him, the dealings he had...he was not going to mention if they were black or white. And for those who wanted to know he wrote: "ask yourself why that's important to you."

Did George ever have racist thoughts? I'm sure he did at one time or another. I'm sure there were people who were unkind to him for that reason alone. He may have also been a little ticked off at Africans when he was in Zaire, or when he held the American flag aloft at the Olympics and got some flak from radical Black Power leaders.

Well, the question is "was" Muhammad Ali a racist. And the more important question is what can you ultimately say about the man, and what did he do in life to make himself in any way "the greatest?" For all his faults and follies, the ultimate image, for most, is that he tried his best to be moral, religious, and on the right side of issues, and raise consciousness and conscience in people of all races.

[carob]

Originally Posted by Colzo

Americas one of the most racist countries in the world!

If you ignore the U.K., who felt it was the "white man's burden" to actively go out and beat the crap out of any brown-skinned or black-skinned man that came their way.

We're talking about a nation that set out to exploit, conquer, and enslave people. You might argue that the British role models were other whites, such as the Romans, who also had the same idea. The French wanted a chunk of Africa, too. India. Africa. The sun wasn't supposed to set on the British empire.

And Americans were...actually Brits. They came over to America and were certainly going to destroy the native Americans and take over their land. But something interesting happened. A few men with a conscience, and a sense of purpose, and a "Bill of Rights" decided to create a country that might just become a role model for tolerance and justice. And so the first thing the Americans did...was go to war with the British, and try and toss out the British notions of enslavement, and taxation, and KINGS.

The Americans reached treaties with some native Americans. That included buying some of the land rather than taking it. But the native Americans were not that eager to have strangers on their property, and so it ended up with war. Chalk that up to the fact that both the Native Americans and the new Americans were human. Both wanted to control. Both wanted power. And both had prejudices.

America's been an ideal, but it hasn't been a utopian reality, because power corrupts. But the ideals of Washington (who refused to become KING), Jefferson, Hamilton and the rest continue to inspire good people everywhere.

Consider this: America has been the greatest country on Earth, and the most powerful, and yet, they did not choose to enslave other countries, take over other countries, or do the kinds of things the Arabs, the Russians, the Red Chinese and the North Koreans have done. Yes, you can point to disgraces and failures with America's leaders and with its people, but the emblems of the country remain the same. The Statue of Liberty, "The Bill of Rights," the "Declaration of Independence," the speeches of Lincoln.

The race problems in the United States? Ignorant white people...some of them...mostly in the South...saw blacks as inferior. Meanwhile, in the U.K., and well beyond the 1960's, The British and the Irish, who look pretty similar, were blowing each other up. That looks just as ridiculous and repugnant to Americans as the racial situation in America does to the some Brits out there.

But back to Muhammad Ali. How old was he? How well schooled? If, in finding his way in life, he got involved with the racist element of the Muslims, he also found his way out of it. A true racist who hated whites would never have tolerated Angelo Dundee or Howard Cosell, no matter how advantageous it might be.

"Ain't no man righteous, not one." There isn't one among us who hasn't had a stereotype thought about someone else for some reason or other, or might not have a purely racial reason for not wanting "one of them" (name your religion or race) to marry into the family or come in and be boss at work. The trick is to recognize it, rise above it, and do better. I think Ali was able to do that.

One of the most interesting things about George Foreman's book was a line he inserted about race. He said that in describing his life...his friends, the people who gave him breaks, the people who were not good to him, the dealings he had...he was not going to mention if they were black or white. And for those who wanted to know he wrote: "ask yourself why that's important to you."

Did George ever have racist thoughts? I'm sure he did at one time or another. I'm sure there were people who were unkind to him for that reason alone. He may have also been a little ticked off at Africans when he was in Zaire, or when he held the American flag aloft at the Olympics and got some flak from radical Black Power leaders.

Well, the question is "was" Muhammad Ali a racist. And the more important question is what can you ultimately say about the man, and what did he do in life to make himself in any way "the greatest?" For all his faults and follies, the ultimate image, for most, is that he tried his best to be moral, religious, and on the right side of issues, and raise consciousness and conscience in people of all races.

[holly]

I'm English. I was always told that the reason "The sun never sets on the British Empire" was becuse God didn't trust us in the dark!

[carob]

Originally Posted by holly

I'm English. I was always told that the reason "The sun never sets on the British Empire" was becuse God didn't trust us in the dark!

"Sapristi! The sun never set on the British Empire, and it turned me dark!"


.

.

.

anyone for curry and chips?

[holly]

Rofl. He was a remarkable talent. Sadly missed. I'm old enough to remember "The Goon Show." That makes me, officially, an old git!! Can't find the "smilies".
Back to the question. I don't think that anyone involved in the "Gladiatorial" sports can be a racist, this is explained in a poem by Rudyard Kipling called, " The Ballard Of East and West." To our American cousins, read the whole lot, not just the first 2 lines!!

[Colzo]

Originally Posted by carob

If you ignore the U.K., who felt it was the "white man's burden" to actively go out and beat the crap out of any brown-skinned or black-skinned man that came their way.

We're talking about a nation that set out to exploit, conquer, and enslave people. You might argue that the British role models were other whites, such as the Romans, who also had the same idea. The French wanted a chunk of Africa, too. India. Africa. The sun wasn't supposed to set on the British empire.

And Americans were...actually Brits. They came over to America and were certainly going to destroy the native Americans and take over their land. But something interesting happened. A few men with a conscience, and a sense of purpose, and a "Bill of Rights" decided to create a country that might just become a role model for tolerance and justice. And so the first thing the Americans did...was go to war with the British, and try and toss out the British notions of enslavement, and taxation, and KINGS.

The Americans reached treaties with some native Americans. That included buying some of the land rather than taking it. But the native Americans were not that eager to have strangers on their property, and so it ended up with war. Chalk that up to the fact that both the Native Americans and the new Americans were human. Both wanted to control. Both wanted power. And both had prejudices.

America's been an ideal, but it hasn't been a utopian reality, because power corrupts. But the ideals of Washington (who refused to become KING), Jefferson, Hamilton and the rest continue to inspire good people everywhere.

Consider this: America has been the greatest country on Earth, and the most powerful, and yet, they did not choose to enslave other countries, take over other countries, or do the kinds of things the Arabs, the Russians, the Red Chinese and the North Koreans have done. Yes, you can point to disgraces and failures with America's leaders and with its people, but the emblems of the country remain the same. The Statue of Liberty, "The Bill of Rights," the "Declaration of Independence," the speeches of Lincoln.

The race problems in the United States? Ignorant white people...some of them...mostly in the South...saw blacks as inferior. Meanwhile, in the U.K., and well beyond the 1960's, The British and the Irish, who look pretty similar, were blowing each other up. That looks just as ridiculous and repugnant to Americans as the racial situation in America does to the some Brits out there.

But back to Muhammad Ali. How old was he? How well schooled? If, in finding his way in life, he got involved with the racist element of the Muslims, he also found his way out of it. A true racist who hated whites would never have tolerated Angelo Dundee or Howard Cosell, no matter how advantageous it might be.

"Ain't no man righteous, not one." There isn't one among us who hasn't had a stereotype thought about someone else for some reason or other, or might not have a purely racial reason for not wanting "one of them" (name your religion or race) to marry into the family or come in and be boss at work. The trick is to recognize it, rise above it, and do better. I think Ali was able to do that.

One of the most interesting things about George Foreman's book was a line he inserted about race. He said that in describing his life...his friends, the people who gave him breaks, the people who were not good to him, the dealings he had...he was not going to mention if they were black or white. And for those who wanted to know he wrote: "ask yourself why that's important to you."

Did George ever have racist thoughts? I'm sure he did at one time or another. I'm sure there were people who were unkind to him for that reason alone. He may have also been a little ticked off at Africans when he was in Zaire, or when he held the American flag aloft at the Olympics and got some flak from radical Black Power leaders.

Well, the question is "was" Muhammad Ali a racist. And the more important question is what can you ultimately say about the man, and what did he do in life to make himself in any way "the greatest?" For all his faults and follies, the ultimate image, for most, is that he tried his best to be moral, religious, and on the right side of issues, and raise consciousness and conscience in people of all races.

Im not forgeting about the UK they have been the biggest terriosts the world has seen during its empire days the USA have now taken over as the bullys of the world

You mention the bill of rights im pretty sure the bill of rights has been around from the 1790s but yet a black man couldnt eat in a restaurant with whites in the 1960s the natives were being killed and sent to reservations till what 1890s or more slavery was abloised till the 1860s when the irish n that went to the USA in the 1860s they lived in the worst neighbour hoods Italion americans in the 1890-1930s got paid less money than anyone esle so the US bill of rights only counts if your a white American born there of English decent at least untill the 1970s anyway nearly 200 years after the document was written.

What the hells this right to bear arms about?

[carob]

Originally Posted by holly

Rofl. He was a remarkable talent.

Milligan was a genius. A difficult man...even his manager Norma Farnes would say so...but such a great one. His influence on British comedy is mammoth. He was also a good poet, and his essays and endless "letters to the editor" were filled with sensitivity and passion.

Originally Posted by holly

Back to the question. I don't think that anyone involved in the "Gladiatorial" sports can be a racist, this is explained in a poem by Rudyard Kipling called, " The Ballard Of East and West." To our American cousins, read the whole lot, not just the first 2 lines!!

Well, Ruddy the Kip was the guy who wrote, "you're a better man than I am," and the slightly less quoted "here's to you, Fuzzy Wuzzy!" He wrote some stuff that wasn't all black and white...that gave the "heathens" a soul, heart and feelings. And, ahem, I think "Road to Mandalay" suggested that Burma girls were well worth knowing!

Originally Posted by Colzo

Im not forgeting about the UK they have been the biggest terriosts the world has seen during its empire days the USA have now taken over as the bullys of the world

Or, to quote the title of a Phil Ochs song, "Cops of the World."

I just think it's worth noting that America the Racist country is also the country with the most races living in it. You can ride a subway and it's a stew of different languages and colors, and everybody getting along (at about 2 miles per hour, and inhaling things nobody wants to inhale). A certain amount of assimilation in America makes it seem like it's possible for people to get along. But...it's not easy.

I think the U.K. is going through some convulsions with the influx of Pakis, and Poles and whatnot. Some places, it's hard to find a chips shop run by some authentic old Stanley Holloway type.

But one interesting thing, getting back to Ali and race...let's remember that an awful lot of white people became fans of Muhammad Ali. When he fought Bugner, or even the beloved Henry Cooper, a lot of white people were rooting for Ali. A short time later, you add Bill Cosby, Diahann Carroll and others. Not black boxer, black comedian, black actress...just Americans. Just people. And, oddly enough, Muhammad confessed that he couldn't work up much hatred for guys like Bugner or Cooper. He nicknamed Shavers "acorn" and Frazier "gorilla," but he had nothing on Bugner. [/quote]

Originally Posted by Colzo

You mention the bill of rights im pretty sure the bill of rights has been around from the 1790s

Yes, it takes a while for some things to catch on. Ginger-haired Jefferson had a black mistress, but it wasn't until the 1970's that we had "The Jeffersons" sitcom. A lot of it comes down to assimilation and education. Women didn't have the vote in the 1790s. And to this day, there are people who say women are stupid and that Obama is a dog-eater...just amazing. Evolution is one damn slow process [/quote]

Originally Posted by Colzo

What the hells this right to bear arms about?

Oh...it's about this:


I guess it's a Halloween thing.
(And happy Guy Fawkes Day to those who had no idea what John Lennon was singing about when he ended "Remember" with that explosion).

Actually I think people need to take another look at the 2nd Amendment. Back then, it referred to being able to defend your home against Indians, the British, or a bear. I don't think the Founding Fathers would agree that we have a right to own assault weapons, or there shouldn't be a background check on nutjobs who want machine guns.

But the NRA uses the same logic that the anti-Marijuana people use: "If you legalize marijuana, everyone will escalate to heroin," and "if you ban assault weapons, next thing you know, our hunting rifles will be taken away."

[C.J.Rock]

Originally Posted by Fitz

So what you're saying is that Ali was justified in his racist actions, because he was on the receiving end in Louisville?

Put yourself in his position and see how you'd feel. Anyway what did Ali do that makes you call him racist. I admire Ali for standing up for his beliefs. He could have gone into the army & just been a propoganda figure like Joe Louis did in WWII
It cannot be denied it was the sons & daughters of poor people large proportion african american that were shipped off to Nam while the rich kids like Clinton ,Bush ttc escaped the draft most illegally

[OKMike]

Originally Posted by C.J.Rock

Put yourself in his position and see how you'd feel. Anyway what did Ali do that makes you call him racist. I admire Ali for standing up for his beliefs. He could have gone into the army & just been a propoganda figure like Joe Louis did in WWII
It cannot be denied it was the sons & daughters of poor people large proportion african american that were shipped off to Nam while the rich kids like Clinton ,Bush ttc escaped the draft most illegally

WTF old man? Joe Louis a propaganda figure in the army during WWII? Oh you mean the war we should absolutely have been involved in? Oh shame one him for serving his country you senile old bastard.

Ali said many racist things on record back in the day. Stood up for his beliefs did he? He was a puppet used by black extremists.

[Bigblock]

Originally Posted by carob

Actually I think people need to take another look at the 2nd Amendment. Back then, it referred to being able to defend your home against Indians, the British, or a bear. I don't think the Founding Fathers would agree that we have a right to own assault weapons, or there shouldn't be a background check on nutjobs who want machine guns.

But the NRA uses the same logic that the anti-Marijuana people use: "If you legalize marijuana, everyone will escalate to heroin," and "if you ban assault weapons, next thing you know, our hunting rifles will be taken away."

It was written so the people would always have a way to fight back against an oppressive government(what the revolutionists did) should the need arise again. Notice in recent history where the revolutionaries had to be sent weapons from the outside? Ya the founding fathers didn't want us to have to do that. They believed it was every mans responsibility to defend himself.

Also considering the war they fought they would want people to own whatever weapons the government owned(to be able to fight on equal terms).