[Dr. Sweet Science]

Originally Posted by OKMike

WTF old man? Joe Louis a propaganda figure in the army during WWII? Oh you mean the war we should absolutely have been involved in? Oh shame one him for serving his country you senile old bastard.

Ali said many racist things on record back in the day. Stood up for his beliefs did he? He was a puppet used by black extremists.

For once I have to agree with CJ. Why should he put his life on the line for a country that doesn't consider him as equal, where he can't eat at a certain restaurant, or use the same bathroom or water fountains or swimming pools as whites? As Ali said, he had no problem with the "Browns" over there in Vietnam...they did no harm to him. He felt that the government wanted him to fight their fight. He felt that he had his own war to fight in America...so why should he fight for those who oppress him?

[Bigblock]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sweet Science

For once I have to agree with CJ. Why should he put his life on the line for a country that doesn't consider him as equal, where he can't eat at a certain restaurant, or use the same bathroom or water fountains or swimming pools as whites? As Ali said, he had no problem with the "Browns" over there in Vietnam...they did no harm to him. He felt that the government wanted him to fight their fight. He felt that he had his own war to fight in America...so why should he fight for those who oppress him?

Problem with that logic is that if you let one follow it then you gotta let everyone do it.

[holly]

Hi Big block. Can't quite follow that argument. Governments have "standing armies" to fight in situations that they want them to fight in. The government and the armed forces accept that. When you call up civilians then they have to be sure that what they're fighting for is "right". If someone is threatening your country you join up in an instance. However, if your country isn't being threatened, I think you're entitled to decide if you want to die for something that has no relevance to you.

[Bigblock]

Originally Posted by holly

Hi Big block. Can't quite follow that argument. Governments have "standing armies" to fight in situations that they want them to fight in. The government and the armed forces accept that. When you call up civilians then they have to be sure that what they're fighting for is "right". If someone is threatening your country you join up in an instance. However, if your country isn't being threatened, I think you're entitled to decide if you want to die for something that has no relevance to you.

It actually isn't up for debate if you are drafted. If they let everyone pull an Ali and choose then the out come of some wars might not be the same as they were.

[carob]

Originally Posted by holly

Governments have "standing armies" to fight in situations that they want them to fight in. The government and the armed forces accept that. When you call up civilians then they have to be sure that what they're fighting for is "right".

Really...when there's a raging war and the government needs men, and there's a draft...men should be able to simply say "No, I won't go?"

By that logic, we should also be able to say, "I don't want to pay tax. You're giving MY tax money to people I don't like, and to fund things I don't believe in."

No, by choosing the country you live in, you accept the government's policies. OR, work to change those policies. Or take the consequences.

Ali was willing to go to jail and to lose tons of money. He accepted that. That's the greatness here. He put his money where his mouth was.

The draft at the time did have exemptions. There were also weasel-ways out, like making sure to be assigned to domestic duty, a desk job, or "entertaining the troops." At the time I guess there was some question about religious exemption for Black Muslims who were promoting the Kill Whitey idea. No, if you are going to Kill Whitey, then you can Kill Yellowy too. But if your religion forbids killing anyone or anything, then maybe you can drive an ambulance or something as a "conscientious objector."

[holly]

Both replies are interesting. Thankyou for the replies. I suppose it comes down to the idea, are you a member of a country or are you an individual? I guess everyone has to make up their mind about that one.

[miguel]

Of course Ali was a racist back in the day. Anyone who says different is blinkered. He even talked about how he spoke at a Klu Klux Klan rally - essentially saying he shared the same beliefs applied to the black race obviously.

The guy called the white man the devil, and was very clear he meant every white man.

Ali was the puppet of Nation of Islam, an organisation so corrupt and extreme that Malcolm X had enough and walked away from them.

I can't even be bothered to read previous posts, this is such an obvious answer

[carob]

Originally Posted by miguel

The guy called the white man the devil, and was very clear he meant every white man.

Except Angelo Dundee.

And then came Howard Cosell. After that, Ali found he could tolerate most everyone.

[miguel]

Originally Posted by carob

Except Angelo Dundee.

And then came Howard Cosell. After that, Ali found he could tolerate most everyone.

But this proved he was a puppet also - he was spouting stuff he was told to come out and yet contradicting himself in other ways...

He was quite the womaniser but this didn't seem to contradict his strict religious beliefs? Yet in the name of religion he didn't go to war?

[C.J.Rock]

Originally Posted by OKMike

WTF old man? Joe Louis a propaganda figure in the army during WWII? Oh you mean the war we should absolutely have been involved in? Oh shame one him for serving his country you senile old bastard.

Ali said many racist things on record back in the day. Stood up for his beliefs did he? He was a puppet used by black extremists.

Joe Louis was a propoganda figure in WWII but he wore a uniform. Ali was told he could do same thing but his religion forbade him. I will agree on one point Ali was extorted to full extent by Elijah Muhammad it was the muslims insisted he fought Holmes & Berbick. Ali was ,is & always will be devoted to his religion
Tell me Mike Have you ever met Ali? Have you ever spoken to him? Well I have & have the utmost respect for him. I may not agree with his religions doctrine but I agree 100% with his desicion to do what he did.
Another think Mike Its sad when a so called staff member of another forum comes here and try to insult me by calling me a senile old bastard. Thing is Mike this "senile old bastard" could clean your clock any day & twice on sunday.