It should also be remembered the Rock was retired at the time. If the Rock would have been asked if he could've beaten Clay during his fighting days, the answer would have been a resounding YES! Ali even had doubts that he could have beaten Marciano...
But that would be a fighters pride talking. No fighter is going to say he would lose to anyone. A fighter needs that supreme confidence to get in the ring fight after fight, take it away and he's finished.
Yes, fair comment. Holmes is a very underrated fighter. Perhaps it's because Ali preceded him? Why do you think he should be in the top 10? Do you think he deserves it more than Dempsey, Holyfield, Tyson or Lewis?
Yes, fair comment. Holmes is a very underrated fighter. Perhaps it's because Ali preceded him? Why do you think he should be in the top 10? Do you think he deserves it more than Dempsey, Holyfield, Tyson or Lewis?
Tyson and Lewis don't belong in the top 10. I have them ranked 14th and 13th respectively. Dempsey I rank 4th and Holmes 5th, Holyfield 7th.
All good choices. But, what in your opinion gives Holmes the edge over Tyson and Lewis?
On the minus for Lewis, he had a couple of bad nights against McCall and Rahman but he avenged both defeats. On the plus side he became the undisputed champion and his record has wins against Holyfield and Tyson (although Tyson was finished by then). He didn't duck anyone but I think everyone would like to have seen him up against Bowe.
Tyson was also undisputed champion - when he was up and coming he had great lateral movement, hand speed and hyper aggression. He cleaned up the heavyweight division and made it exciting again. The minus for me was that after being champion for a while he lost his way and - there were signs even before the Buster Douglas fight that he wasn't the same fighter who battered Trevor Berbick in 1986.
Holmes, I think, gave the IBF credibility when he was champion. He was robbed against Michael Spinks. He has some good names on his record and 20 successful title defences - but - what was he thinking when he took the Tyson fight nearly two years after he retired without a couple of tune ups first?
His biggest problems seem to be that he wasn't as charismatic as Ali and he shot himself in the foot with unfortunate remarks about Rocky Marciano. Neither of these have any bearing on his fighting skills but maybe it explains why he gets overlooked.
As I think about this, I'm actually not sure why I didn't include Holmes but I'm not compelled to drop either Lewis or Tyson in favour of him...
All good choices. But, what in your opinion gives Holmes the edge over Tyson and Lewis?
On the minus for Lewis, he had a couple of bad nights against McCall and Rahman but he avenged both defeats. On the plus side he became the undisputed champion and his record has wins against Holyfield and Tyson (although Tyson was finished by then). He didn't duck anyone but I think everyone would like to have seen him up against Bowe.
Tyson was also undisputed champion - when he was up and coming he had great lateral movement, hand speed and hyper aggression. He cleaned up the heavyweight division and made it exciting again. The minus for me was that after being champion for a while he lost his way and - there were signs even before the Buster Douglas fight that he wasn't the same fighter who battered Trevor Berbick in 1986.
Holmes, I think, gave the IBF credibility when he was champion. He was robbed against Michael Spinks. He has some good names on his record and 20 successful title defences - but - what was he thinking when he took the Tyson fight nearly two years after he retired without a couple of tune ups first?
His biggest problems seem to be that he wasn't as charismatic as Ali and he shot himself in the foot with unfortunate remarks about Rocky Marciano. Neither of these have any bearing on his fighting skills but maybe it explains why he gets overlooked.
As I think about this, I'm actually not sure why I didn't include Holmes but I'm not compelled to drop either Lewis or Tyson in favour of him...
If you go back an watch Holmes' fights you'll see why. I knew back when he was champion he was a truly great fighter: On rewatching his fights in more recent times I discovered he was even better than I thought.
As to what he was thinking: In his mind he saw himself as the great thirty year old he once was; not as the over the hill thirty-eight year old who hadn't fought in two years. It seems to me that a majority of athletes as they age see themselves as they used to be not as they are.
As to why he's ranked higher than the others.....for starters he fought a higher level of competion than any of them except Holyfield. He possessed one of the three best jabs in Heavyweight history, defensively he was better than all of them, his foot speed and movement was top notch, only Holyfield had a better chin. He adapted to his opponents mid-fight better than any of the three, he recovered from being hurt better than any fighter I've ever seen including Ali.
Perceptions of Larry were clouded because he followed Ali: An impossible act to follow. When he actually fought Ali he was in a no win situation: If he lost he was a bum, if he won he was the bad guy for beating Ali. Of course the latter happend and Ali fans never forgave him.
IMO Larry fought the same comp as Holyfield. Other than that, I think you hit it all. He is known by most as having the best left jab in heavyweight history. It was the fastest, and 2nd hardest, nearly the hardest. He had the best recuperative powers and ring savvy than anyone Ive ever seen. He had an iron jaw, strong right, and was an extremely techinical and smart fighter.
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I agree with most of you. Holmes had one of the best left jabs ever. It wasn't as fast as Ali's, BUT it was much more powerful.
Louis, Liston and Holmes all had very powerful jabs and Ali had the quickest one, which could cut you up. They were all a little different and it would be hard to say who had the overall best one.
As far as rating Holmes, I rate him in the top 5 of all-times. The only Heavyweights I would rank higher for sure, would be Ali and Louis.
What is your top 10 heavyweight list?
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