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**bill1234** · 11-14-2006, 09:38 PM

Yo, JCC, do you agree with me that its not the number of KO's you have, its the percentage?

JCC · 11-14-2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill1234

Yo, JCC, do you agree with me that its not the number of KO's you have, its the percentage?

Your absolutely right!

Just wanted to show respect to Archie Moore is all, he was also one of the greats. (wink)

JCC

**bill1234** · 11-14-2006, 09:55 PM

I give the the Ol' Mongoose every bit of respect, its just it annoys me when people say so and so had more KO's then so and so, Ive told people a thousand times that its the KO percentage not the numbers. Of course if they are comparing people with the same amount of fights, its an entirely different story.

gnk · 12-11-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

A friend in Florida had once told me that back when he was just a kid ... back in the 1960's I think it was .. I'm not sure. Any way, I think it was at that time. He was at an arena with his dad ... I think .. and was watching the fights.

And Sugar Ray (Robinson) came into the arena ... and suddenly the whole arena turned quiet .. as Sugar Ray's presence became known in the arena... and he said even the fighters in the ring .. seem to be distracted by it too.

It was out of respect ... you see.

You mentioned Ali?

I heard that when Ali, was a youngster that he had partically idolized Sugar Ray, and when Ali ... became a fighter he tryed to pattern himself after Sugar Ray.

The more you learn about Sugar Ray (and perhaps to have not been around or to have been too young to have never seen his fights) .. go do some research and learn about him. And you'll find out just how great a fighter .. and how great a man he really had been.

I don't think there is likely any old school handlers or trainers ... that are still around today, including boxing historians that if asked who was the greatest all-around fighter of all time that wouldn't most likely say it was Sugar Ray Robinson.

I tend to believe Ali may would mostly likely say that about Sugar Ray too. I think he would likely tell you that too. I'm almost certian that he likely would.

JCC

I am not old enough to have seen Ray Robinson fight -- so I will gladly defer to those who did in calling him the best ever. But just having read the book "Pound for Pound" by Herb Boyd (with Ray Robinson II) -- I would not call him a great man. This book -- which is very positive in its description of Robinson in many respects -- also describes his beating his wife Edna Mae, continuous extramarital affairs, stiffing sparring partners.

Great fighter? Absolutely.

Great man? No way.

hhascup · 12-11-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

You bet!

Because there's so much talk here on the board in places and mention of the Rock ... the great and legendary Rocky Marciano ... my favorite fighter .. and as for Sugar Ray Robinson the fighter I most most admire. I'll just mention that when Archie Moore .. went into the fight with Marciano ... he was an old guy ... by that time as a fighter at 38 years of age ... at 5'11" he weighed in for that fight at 188 lbs and had been the light heavyweight champion of the world and with a professional record going into that fight of 114 (fights)-- 19 (losses), with 83 Ko's and 5 draws ... and he was one hellavua fighter and a real classy fighter too.
JCC

At the time Old Archie fought Rocky, he had a record of 148-19-9 with 107 knockouts.

I also read the book "Pound for Pound," I got the book off of Ray Robinson II, who I met several times at a Ring #8 meeting.

It would be very hard to pick just one, BUT I can pick the Greatest in my eyes. These are not in no special order:

Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pep
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis

JCC · 12-12-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnk

... just having read the book "Pound for Pound" by Herb Boyd (with Ray Robinson II) -- I would not call him a great man. This book ... describes his beating his wife Edna Mae, continuous extramarital affairs, stiffing sparring partners.

Great man? No way.

When I say Sugar Ray Robinson was a great man its in reference to his accomplishments and contribution to the sport ... as for this other stuff you mentioned I don't care about ... Sugar Ray was a man wasn't he?

As for your mention of stiffing sparring partners .. if by that you mean he had flattened some guys? Boxing is a tough sport and even all the more so in Sugar Ray's day.

If your going to be a fighter you can't be a wussie. There's no room in boxing for wussies and especially as it was in Sugar Ray's day. You had to really be salty to be a fighter.

gnk · 12-12-2006, 12:26 PM

I guess we'll have to disagree about what makes someone a great man. There's a lot more to it in my mind than being a great fighter, which all would agree Robinson was.

I'm sure he flattened many a sparring partner. By "stiffing" I meant not paying, or not paying what was agreed. The book refers to a couple of instances where this happened. I apologize for being unclear in my words.

The Auctioneer · 12-12-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill1234

Yo, JCC, do you agree with me that its not the number of KO's you have, its the percentage?

Bill, I think you have to look at knockout percentage with a perspective eye. If a guy is 20 and 0 with 20 knockouts, therfore a 100% ko rate, but what does that mean against 20 opponents with losing records.I think it is a subjective category.Archies Moore had 107 knockouts at the time of the Rocky fight which is 200% more knockouts than rocky had fights. This is why I would classify him over Rocky. That is not to say that Rocky was not one of the greatest.

JCC · 12-12-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnk

I guess we'll have to disagree about what makes someone a great man. There's a lot more to it in my mind than being a great fighter, which all would agree Robinson was.

If your reference is to handing out some kind of merit badge?

That's not what I had in mind when I said Sugar Ray Robinson was a great man.

It was only in reference to his accomplishments as a fighter and his contribution to the sport ... not in reference to handing out of merit badges or any thing like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnk

By "stiffing" I meant not paying, or not paying what was agreed. The book refers to a couple of instances where this happened. I apologize for being unclear in my words.

Glad you explained that. If that is in fact true? Of course, that wouldn't be right to not pay somebody according to what you agreed to pay them. That is, if its really true he cheated some people in the way? I say if he did? Only because I have read things written about sports celebrities by some of these people who write books that I have known to not be true.

In Robinson's case, I would have no idea if that's true or not. But you can't believe everything sports writers say and everything people who write books say about other people either because there's a lot of stuff people will say about other people often times that isn't true.

Any way, regardless if Sugar Ray had some kind of martial problems that led to him having a girl friend or whatever else?

Those kind of things do happen in life.

Things such as that be it gossip or whatever?

I have no interest in.

I just say he was a great man for reasons of his accomplishments as fighter and for his contribution to the sport as being an outstanding athlete.

I wasn't saying he was the pope and infallible or any thing like that.(smiling)

I didn't have some kind of religion thing in my mind when I said Sugar Ray Robinson was a great man.

Sonny Liston · 12-12-2006, 10:01 PM

Sugar Ray Robinson was a great man and a great fighter... the greatest fighte of all time... pound for pound... in boxing history... in my opinion!

He was fair... he never cheated... he doesn't have a criminal record... he respected his opponents... he was kind... good at heart... softly spoken... and when he did live it up (HIS BIG EXPENSIVE PINK CADILLAC)... HE DESERVED IT... he was never arrogant... he was assertive (muck like the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time... Muhammad Ali). Muhammad Ali himself said that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer of all time. Jake LaMotta... Sugar Ray Robinson's greatest ever/toughest ever/best ever rival... who was the first man to knock down and later on beat Sugar Ray Robinson (only to lose to him another 5 times... but they were still WARS)... said that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer of all time!