hhascup

We could go on with this forever, BUT getting back to the computer bout, this took place in 1969, just before Rocky was killed in an airplane crash. The film came out after the crash and Rocky never knew that he won.

The computer is only as good as the information you put into it and they didn't put in the chin Ali had. Ali proved himself after he came back after 3-1/2 years. I know most of the boxing historians around, including Bert Sugar and Herb Goldman, who I both researched and worked with, and they both rate Ali over Rocky. By the way, they also rate me as a top boxing historian as well.

JCC

According to Rocky Marciano's brother Peter ... a few days after the filming was completed. Rocky came into the hotel room and a sat down in a chair, in obvious pain.

Peter says, "What's the matter, Rock?" "My back stiffened up. Guess I hurt it in getting ready getting ready for Clay. It will be alright, Pete."

Peter says, "How do you think you'll do in that fight?"

"I'm a winner in thirteen," Rocky says.

Peter says, "You know you won?"

Rocky says, "I told you. I take him out in the thirteenth round."

Peter said that he knew better than to pursue the matter beyond that point. For Rocky in being the way he was told people only as much as he wanted them to know.

Peter says, "Gee, that's great. Rock. Clay's a great fighter, but I knew you'd beat him."

JC

__________________
"The more I sweated in the gym, the less I bleed in the ring."

hhascup

All I can say is that brothers stick together, Lou always stated that no one could beat his brother.

Using the best of that computer technology of the day had to offer Murray Worner filmed a computer orchestrated bout between Marciano and Ali. The two boxed between 50 and 70 rounds and announcer Guy Lebow recorded several endings. Thus, no one knew the outcome of the bout until the one and only showing held at theatres on January 20, 1970. Tragically, Marciano died in plane crash prior to the showing of the film and never knew his final victory was a 13th round knockout of Ali.

Ali vs. Marciano

Also, here's all you need to know about computer fights. In September of 1970, they used the same computer that produced the Marciano-Ali fight to pick the winner of the Joe Frazier vs. Bob Foster heavyweight title fight in November of 1970. The computer picked Foster to stop Frazier in the sixth round. Since Frazier knocked Foster out in the second round, the computer could not have been more wrong. In fact, Frazier hit Foster so hard that he injured his ankle while he was going down.

JCC

Lou ...? Maybe a typo .. you mean Peter.

You mean he was being biased, and his pick of the winner ... is personal .. yet yours not! (smiling)

In an earlier post ... you also seem to suggest that because Lou Duva was a friend of Rocky's and because Lou was Italian ... his pick of Marciano was biased too. Maybe? That could be? It's possible. Also could be your pick of Ali, is personal and biased too, for whatever reason. And in part even my pick of Marciano could be too. I don't think so. But it's possible. (smiling)

But I'm not Italian, like Lou. (wink)

You can come up with all the excuses you like, but the fact remains ... that nobody could beat Rocky Marciano and nobody ever did. But Ali, can't say that! And Ali, had also suffered defeat in his professional career by being knocked out too.

Interestingly, in Ali's autobiography, Ali suggests the entire fight was fake, including the computer and claimed the Marciano said he felt the fight would be rigged for the benefit of the promoter and that "the computer is bull ***."

But one thing is certian, Marciano never thought he would lose. Marciano had refused millions to make a comeback in the ring. There was no way he would risk losing a fight to a computer for a few thousand dollars.

Angelo Dundee (Ali's manager and trainer) figured everything was done fairly. "The intriguing thing is that nobody knew who the winner was going to be," Dundee said. "Muhammed wasn't told, I wasn't told, the referee wasn't told. The only guy who knew was Murry Woroner, and he wasn't telling anybody. It was done strictly by the computer. Nobody set the thing up."

"To err is machine," Dundee said later, when the films showed Marciano to be the winner.

LOL ... well, what else would you expect Ali's manager and trainer to say? Maricano can beat Ali? (smiling)

And Ali said at the time, "The guy from Mississipi must have been running that machine," jokingly, but he was boiling mad. LOL

Also interesting is that Marciano had already won the all-time heavyweight championship in a Woroner sponsored radio computer tournament. Marciano KO'd Jack Dempsey in the 15 th round of the final bout.

But Clay (Ali) had been eliminated in the preliminaries by Jim Jeffries. Ali (then called Cassuis Clay), ridiculed the outcome, and criticized both the computer and Jeffries, calling him the slowest and chumsiest heavyweight champion in history.

Really it's suprising that Ali would have even agreed to the computer fight with Marciano, in being he had so little faith in the computer and the promoter. (smiling)

But Ali claimed he needed the money.

Well, how much money was it?

According to Ali, for his part it amounted to only $ 999.99.

As for Marciano, he claimed his cut was about $ 10,000, and said he didn't know what Ali was paid.

According to Peter Marciano, Rocky's brother ... a few days after the filming was completed. Rocky came into his hotel room and sat down in a chair and in obvious pain.

Peter says "What's the matter, Rock?" Rocky says "My back stiffened up. Guess I hurt it getting ready for Clay. It'll be all right, Pete."

Peter says "How do you think you'll do in that fight?"

Rocky says grinning "I'm a winner in thirteen."

Peter says "You know you won?"

Rocky says "I told you. I take him out in the thirteen round."

Peter said he knew better than to pursue the matter beyond that point. Rocky told people only as much as he wanted them to know.

Finally, I want to say you say your a historian. You see things from a historical perpective. I know boxing history too. But I'm an ex-fighter. I see things from the perpective of having been a fighter.

Therefore, I'm going to see things naturally from a diferrent perspective than you do.

Now, as for the sports writers, I've long since known you can't believe every thing those guys say. (wink)

As for Ali, I seen all his fights! I grew up as a kid watching his fights. Too young at the time to have seem Maricano's fights! But I've studied his life and know about his fights ... and I have tapes of all his greatest fights ... round per round, and I'm not Italian, and I'm not Rocky's brother either. I am an ex-fighter ... who says "Ali could never go the distance in a 15 rounder with Marciano, without getting knockout." (smiling)

Rocky Marciano was truly an amazing fighter, and an amazing world champion, and an amazing undisputed world champion. And as the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, even with all the natural disadvantages he had as a heavyweight ... achieved something that no other world champion of not only the heavyweight division ... but of any weight division in the history of "gloved boxing" ever achieved .. to have finished a professional career without a single loss, nobody could beat him, and nobody did beat him.

Marciano also got the knockout in near all (88 percent) of his fights. He seem to always find a way to knock them all out. Among the heavyweight champions nobody comes close to that average except for runner up Joe Louis with a 76 percentage average.

Moreover, I've studied boxing history too. Nobody, had the heart, determination and guts in the history of "gloved" boxing that Rocky Marciano had.

I believe you would have to go back to the days when they fought without gloves with bare knuckles ... to find a fighter that was as tough in body and in mind as Rocky Marciano. Those guys would fought 50 to 100 rounds and go back to work in the foundries the next day. They were tough in body and in mind. And they had strategy. They knew how to fight!

In the ring Marciano was like a pit bull with gloves on who would fight to the death. He was the only one who refused to lose, and he never did lose.

I say, Ali would have no chance of beating Marciano in a 15 round fight, and Marciano would get the knockout.

Of course, Ali did get knocked out by Marciano in the thirteen round in the Marciano-Ali computer fight.

But in a 10 or 12 rounder, Ali may would have had a better chance of beating Marciano.

But in a 15 rounder? Forget about it!

For the more rounds to go in the ring in a fight with Marciano would be no advantage ... but only more chance of being knockout by Marciano.

I believe the computer was right! Rocky Marciano would have be the winner by a knockout! in a fight with Ali, in a 15 round fight. I have no doubts about that at all.

JC

__________________
"The more I sweated in the gym, the less I bleed in the ring."

hhascup

Marciano started his pro career on March 17, 1947. He had his next pro bout on July 12, 1948. He actually returned to the Amateurs between that time and was defeated a couple of times. He actually lost 4 Amateur bouts in all.

If you look at his record, Ted Lowry, who I met a couple of years ago, went the distance with him twice. Ted is a very small heavyweight, he is listed at 5'10", but he looked a lot shorter then that.

Also, Don Mogard and Red Applegate, who was 10-14-2 at the time went the distance with the Rock too.

Ali had the best chin of all the Heavyweight Champions, everybody knows that, so I really can't see him being KO'ed by anyone, even Rocky.

You can't tell me that Rocky punched any harder then Shavers, Foreman or Frazier are you.

If you go by Nat Fleischer, he stated that the Rock had the most courage of any boxer. He also stated that Ali had the 2nd best jab (#1 was Louis) the 3rd best footwork (Tunney and Loughran were 1-2), the 2nd best defense (Johnson was #1). He also had Joe Frazier as the 2nd most aggressive (Armstrong was #1) and he rated Joe the best body puncher of all times.

Also, it was no typo, I have been with Lou Marciano several times as he ran the Rocky Marciano gym in Jersey City for several years with Al Certo and Zigg.

Rocky Marciano, The 13th Candle

Don't get me wrong, I am a BIG fan of Marciano, that's why I MC'ed the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp. I try to be fair in how I rate the boxers. I have just about every film you can think of and I watch them all the time. My rating you by what I see and who each boxer beat in their careers.

hhascup

I almost forgot, Fleischer also rated Ali the 3rd best combination puncher ever (Benny Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson were 1-2)

Fleischer died in 1972.

Ali was stopped once, that was by Holmes, BUT Ali was way past his prime. Even then Holmes couldn't drop him, even though Ali was starting to get sick.

I talked to Holmes several times and he told me that Ali was the Greatest Heavyweight of all times. He even told that to Bert Sugar when they gave that special on ESPN, rating the all time heavyweights. Sugar had Ali 2nd, only to Louis and he had Rocky at #5 (I think). George Chuvalo also stated that Ali was #1.

JCC

As for Marciano's amatuer record, it wasn't all that good, he only had 12 fights, and lost 4 of those fights. But it should be realized he had no training whatsoever. He was just a rough neck who had alot of bottom to him who could punch, and could take a punch ... and he got by on that alone with no boxing experience or training at all.

On the other hand, I have seen some over the years that were good amateur fighters turn pro ... and were eaten a live.

You got to really be salty to go pro ... especially back in those days with the kind of talent there was back then which is very lacking today in boxing.

Even when Marciano turned pro ... he didn't know how to fight .. he had no training. And just by looking at him then he'd never be a fighter. Not only was he out of shape ... and too heavy to be a light heavyweight, yet too light to be a good heavyweight. He wasn't tall enough, his arms were too short, his legs were too thick. He really didn't have much going for him.

He was so inexperienced when he turned pro ... he had never wore a cup, or even used a mouth piece and he was short, clumsy and couldn't box he did every thing wrong, but he had the punch, and he had heart and guts, and was teachable and wanting to learn.

Then he came under the wing of Al Weill as his manager and Charley Goldman as his trainer ... and then all began to change. Weill carried him right, and not too fast, and Goldman taught him how to fight and Marciano developed into being the greatest heavyweight fighter and champion of his era. And accomplished some things that nobody else ever did in the history of "gloved" boxing.

Of course, you mentioned his amatuer career to try to find fault with him and discredit him, and pull him down some notches only because you don't like him I think for whatever reason, and you like Ali. But Ali didn't win. Marciano got the knockout. (smiling)

As an amatuer and even as a professional at the start Marciano was even by far worst a fighter than the picture you painted. So I just thought I would help you out.

Ali, to go the distance in a 15 rounder ... with Marciano? Forget about it! Marciano would get the knockout just as he did in the computer fight!

In fact, if it had been a real fight? I believe Marciano may would have even gotten the knockout before the thirteen round.

You talk about Ali's chin, you say he can take a punch. There are a lot of guys that can take a punch that have been knocked out.

You think Ali can't be knocked out?

How many times has Ali been knocked out?

JC

__________________
"The more I sweated in the gym, the less I bleed in the ring."

bill1234

He had the Rock at 6, which is way to far back. Holmes was only 10, which I can tell you right now that Holmes would take Frazier, Foreman, Louis, and Dempsey. Sugar is more baseball then boxing, but he does know his stuff. Holmes showed mercy on Ali in the final 3 rounds. He would just jab him a coulple times on the rope and gave the ref a look a couple a of times telling him to stop the fight.

__________________
MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008

bill1234

Marciano hit harder than Frazier easy. Marciano's "Suzie Q" could knock anyone down. If I had a choice of being hit by Marciano's "suzie Q" or Fraziers left hook I would choose to be hit by Fraziers left hook. Can you really take this list seriously??? Having Louis with the best jab? COME ON!!! That is lutacris in my oppinion. Holmes jab was the best ever. Holmes knocked a guy down with his jab, when Holmes hit with his jab it kept you off balance, it kept you away, and it made you wince in pain because it hurt you. Ali's just kept you away from him. And saying Tunney and Loughran had the best foot work is just flat out odd. Marciano and Frazier had about the same aggression, Marciano's was more succesful though. This is all in my opinion, but that list is very, VERY, odd.

__________________
MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008

hhascup

I can't say that Ali couldn't be knocked out because if hit right, anyone could be, but he was hit by some of the hardest punchers in boxing history, Shavers, Foreman and Frazier, and they couldn't do it. Frazier landed one of the hardest left hooks ever and dropped Ali, BUT Ali was up at the count of 4. The rest of the round you saw Frazier trying to finish Ali off and not only couldn't he do it, BUT he hardly landed another punch.

If your going by the computer, then you would have said that Foster would have knocked out Frazier too, and we all know what happen their.

We could go on and on about this and it looks like neither one of us is going to break down.

Anyone can have a Great record if they box the right people. Its not the number of wins you have, its who did you beat. I think even you would agree that Ali fought by far the better competition.

I really think that Rocky was a Great puncher and had a lot of courage. When I did the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp speech, you would have been proud. I made all your points in front of 100's of people. I told them if you go by the record, no one had a better one, and if you like computers, Rocky won both computer tournaments, one on the radio and the other against Ali.

I left it up to the people to judge how Great he was.

Here's some of the historian ratings:

Herb Goldman:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Dempsey
6. Louis
7. Marciano
8. Wills
9. Foreman
10. Frazier

BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS

1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1931-45
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006


Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic


Monte D. Cox

THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
11. Rocky Marciano
12. Joe Frazier
13. Rid**** Bowe
14. Evander Holyfield
15. Sam Langford
16. Gene Tunney
17. James J. Corbett
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling


All-Time Heavyweight Ratings 1881-NOW! Page
1.*JOE LOUIS
2.*MUHAMMAD ALI
3.*JAMES J JEFFRIES
4.*ROCKY MARCIANO
5.*LENNOX LEWIS
6.*SONNY LISTON
7.*GENE TUNNEY
8.*MIKE TYSON
9.*LARRY HOLMES
10.*GEORGE FOREMAN
11.*JOE FRAZIER
12.*JACK DEMPSEY
13.*JACK JOHNSON
14.*BOB FITZSIMMONS
15.*MAX BAER
16.*EZZARD CHARLES
17.*JACK SHARKEY
18. PETER JACKSON
19. SAM LANGFORD
20.*EVANDER HOLYFIELD

Here's some other sites:

Sportscolumn.com - Sports News - Top 10 Heavyweights of All Time
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Dempsey
7. Tyson
8. Johnson
9. Holyfield
10. Moore

EnriqueH's Top 10 Heavyweights of All Time
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Marciano
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Dempsey
9. Johnson
10. Tyson
11. Liston
12. Charles
13. Walcott
14. Sullivan
15. Patterson

Niagara Falls Reporter
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Liston
6. Frazier
7. Foreman
8. Lewis
9. Marciano
10. Charles

Also:

All Time Heavyweight Boxing Tournament - Boxing Article


I could go on and on. This doesn't say that I agree with any of these but this gives you some ideas on how other people think.