Kameleon

Background:
Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. on January 17, 1942) is a retired American boxer. In 1999, Ali was crowned "Sportsman of the Century" by Sports Illustrated. He won the World Heavyweight Boxing championship three times, and won the North American Boxing Federation championship as well as an Olympic gold medal.

Ali was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He was named after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., (who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay). Ali later changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam and subsequently converted to orthodox Sunni Islam in 1975 to avoid the US draft of the Viet Nam War. Ali famously said "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong" and "no Vietcong ever called me n***er."

Ali had several notable fights against Joe Fraizer, George Foreman and Leon Spinks. Fans will always remember "The Thrilla in Manilla" and "The Rumble in the Jungle". Muhammed Ali was a 2-Time WBC World Heavyweight Champion, a 3-Time NABF World Heavyweight Champion, and a 3-Time WBA World Heavyweight Champion.

Fight History:
Lose 12-11-1981 Trevor Berbick 19-2-1 UD
Lose 10-02-1980 Larry Holmes 35-0-0 RTD - WBC Heavyweight Title
Win 09-15-1978 Leon Spinks 7-0-1 UD - WBA Heavyweight Title
Lose 02-15-1978 Leon Spinks 6-0-1 SD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 09-29-1977 Earnie Shavers 54-5-1 UD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 05-16-1977 Alfredo Evangelista 14-1-1 UD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 09-28-1976 Ken Norton 37-3-0 UD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 05-24-1976 Richard Dunn 33-9-0 TKO - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 04-30-1976 Jimmy Young 17-4-2 UD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 02-20-1976 Jean-Pierre Coopman 24-3-0 KO - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 10-01-1975 Joe Frazier 32-2-0 RTD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 06-30-1975 Joe Bugner 51-6-1 UD - WBC Heavyweight Title
Win 05-16-1975 Ron Lyle 30-2-1 TKO - WBC Heavyweight Title
Win 03-24-1975 Chuck Wepner 30-9-2 TKO - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 10-30-1974 George Foreman 40-0-0 KO - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 01-28-1974 Joe Frazier 30-1-0 UD - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 10-20-1973 Rudi Lubbers 22-1-0 UD
Win 09-10-1973 Ken Norton 30-1-0 SD - NABF Heavyweight Title
Lose 03-31-1973 Ken Norton 29-1-0 SD - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 02-14-1973 Joe Bugner 43-4-1 UD
Win 11-21-1972 Bob Foster 49-5-0 KO - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 09-20-1972 Floyd Patterson 55-7-1 TKO - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 07-19-1972 Alvin Lewis 26-4-0 TKO
Win 06-27-1972 Jerry Quarry 43-5-4 TKO - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 05-01-1972 George Chuvalo 66-17-2 UD - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 04-01-1972 Mac Foster 28-1-0 UD
Win 12-26-1971 Jurgen Blin 28-8-6 KO
Win 11-17-1971 Buster Mathis 256 29-2-0 UD - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 07-26-1971 Jimmy Ellis 30-6-0 TKO - Vacant NABF Heavyweight Title
Lose 03-08-1971 Joe Frazier 26-0-0 UD - WBC/WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 12-07-1970 Oscar Natalio Bonavena 46-6-1 TKO - NABF Heavyweight Title
Win 10-26-1970 Jerry Quarry 37-4-4 TKO
Win 03-22-1967 Zora Folley 74-7-4 KO - WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 02-06-1967 Ernie Terrell 38-4-0 UD - WBA Heavyweight Title
Win 11-14-1966 Cleveland Williams 65-5-1 TKO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 09-10-1966 Karl Mildenberger 49-2-3 TKO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 08-06-1966 Brian London 35-13-0 KO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 05-21-1966 Henry Cooper 33-11-1 TKO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 03-29-1966 George Chuvalo 34-11-2 UD - World Heavyweight Title
Win 11-22-1965 Floyd Patterson 43-4-0 TKO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 05-25-1965 Sonny Liston 35-2-0 KO - World Heavyweight Title
Win 02-25-1964 Sonny Liston 35-1-0 RTD - World Heavyweight Title
Win 06-18-1963 Henry Cooper 27-8-1 TKO
Win 03-13-1963 Doug Jones 21-3-1 UD
Win 01-24-1963 Charley Powell 23-6-3 KO
Win 11-15-1962 Archie Moore 184-22-11 TKO
Win 07-20-1962 Alejandro Lavorante 19-3-0 KO
Win 05-19-1962 Billy Daniels 16-0-0 TKO
Win 04-23-1962 George Logan 22-7-1 TKO
Win 03-28-1962 Don Warner 12-6-2 TKO
Win 02-10-1962 Sonny Banks 10-2-0 TKO
Win 11-29-1961 Willi Besmanoff 44-26-7 TKO
Win 10-07-1961 Alex Miteff 25-10-1 TKO
Win 07-22-1961 Alonzo Johnson 18-7-0 UD
Win 06-26-1961 Duke Sabedong 15-11-1 UD
Win 04-19-1961 LaMar Clark 47-2-1 KO
Win 02-21-1961 Donnie Fleeman 35-11-1 TKO
Win 02-07-1961 Jimmy Robinson 0-1-0 KO
Win 01-17-1961 Tony Esperti 9-6-2 TKO
Win 12-27-1960 Herb Siler 1-1-0 KO
Win 10-29-1960 Tunney Hunsaker 13-9-0 UD

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"You might be faster, stronger and more experienced than me but I know how to cheat!"

bill1234

Ali got lucky with the Cooper fight. Dundee ripped his glove and bought him some time to get his wits back to come back from a pounding to win...

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MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008

Sonny Liston

Muhammad Ali was the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time in my opinion!

bill1234

Not in mine, I think Marciano could wear him down, pound him against the ropes and in corners, and aplie to much power and pressure for Ali. And I'm thinking of the Ali in 1963.

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MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008

hhascup

Rocky was a small heavyweight and had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champion in history. Ali would have been too fast and too big for Rocky. Rocky would have been cut up by Ali's jabs.

Just look at who each of them fought.

Marciano fought the following:

Walcott twice, when Jersey Joe was 38 & 39 years old, and he was a head of Rocky in the 1st bout going into the 13th round.

Charles twice in 1954, after he lost to both Valdes and Harold Johnson in 1953.

Louis, when he was way past his prime.

Moore when he was 38 years old BUT I think he was still at the top of his game.

LaStarza twice, the 1st bout many people thought Rocky lost, BUT I think LaStarza one of the best at the time.

Don Cockell, Harry 'Kid' Matthews, Bernie Reynolds and Carmine Vingo.

Lets compare them against the boxers that Ali fought and beat:

Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Folley, Terrell, Mildenberger, Ellis, Bonavena, Shavers and Chuvalo, just name a few.

Almost all of the boxing historians will agree that Ali fought the best opponents of any Heavyweight Champion in history.

Just look at the stats between the two:

Boxer-----Cont./Cont.---Bouts----% Contenders--Winning % Cont
Ali---------38/49--------061-------80.3279-------089.8---44-5-0
Marciano---13/16--------049-------32.653--------100.0---16-0-0

Boxer----Ave Opp Wins--Ave Opp Losses--Ave Opp Drews--Opp Win Lost %
Ali---------33.229--------5.2459-----------1.1967----------85.26859
Marciano---29.73469-----10.163265--------1.77551---------73.48188

Ali fought against 38 boxers that were in the top 10, 49 times (Rocky only had 49 bouts), thats over 80% of his opponents. Rocky fought only 13 boxers 16 times, that's less then a 1/3.

The average record of the opponent that Ali fought was 33-5 and Rocky 30-10.

Just to let you know, back in 1999 I MC'ed the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp at the Rocky Marciano gym in Jersey City. Lou Marciano, Rocky's brother, asked me and I was very happy to do so. Lou Duva was also their along with Chuck Wepner. A few days later I MC'ed the unveiling of the Joe Louis Memorial Park Monument in Pompton Lakes, where Louis trained. Their were several ex-world champions there including 6 time world title holder Emile Griffith, Joey Giardello, Jimmy Bivins, Chuck Wepner, Lou Duva, Coley Wallace, Ali and Frazier's daughters, Bert Sugar, Dave Anderson, Joe Louis Jr., Dino Duva and many more.

I know the opponents and times are different and its very hard to compare boxers from different times, so thats why I came up with these kinds of stats so we can get a different look. After all we can only go by the boxers they fought.

bill1234

Size isn't everything. Also you know the Ali, Marciano superfight video made in the mid-late 60's??? Well, they were actualy hitting eachother, just nt as fast as they would in real life also they wore these covers around there stomachs so they wouldn't get hurt. THey really did hit eachother as hard as they could too. At the end of one recording, Angelo Dundee asked Ali how it was doing this with Marciano, and Ali replied "this man is crazy!", and he lifted the cover around his stomach to reveal large, red, welts where Marciano had hit him. Also Ali's jab would only keep off Marciano for a round or two.

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MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008

hhascup

I know all about the computer bout they had. The only thing was that they had Ali having an average chin. If they had the computer fight later on, they would have known that he had one of the best chins in boxing history and the ending would have been much different.

Most boxing historians say that Ali would have been too much for Rocky, BUT we will never know for sure.

JCC

More of this Rocky Marciano ... fought old men stuff? (smiling)

Here's my answer to Rocky's critics ... that have always been out there since his day and until this day!

Rocky was 9 years younger ... than Jersey Joe Walcott from whom he won the title, but Jack Dempsey ... was 13 years younger than Jess Willard when he KO'd Willard for the title.

James Jeffries ... was 12 years younger than Bob Fitzsimmons when he took the title.

Joe Louis ... was 12 years younger than James Braddock when he took the title.

Cassius Clay (later called Muhummed Ali) ... was 10 years younger than Sonny Liston when he took the title.

Rocky was 9 nine years younger... than Joe Louis ... and ... 10 years younger than Archie Moore ... both of whom Rocky .. knocked out.

But Ali ... was 19 years younger than .. Archie Moore when they fought.

And Joe Louis ... was 9 years younger than ... Max Schmeling .. when Schmeling KO'd him.

But Ezzard Charles was ... only 2 years older than Rocky; he was 32 and Rocky was 30 .. when Rocky beat him ... twice in 1954 to retain his title.

There are many of examples of young fighters meeting old fighters on their way up ...

JC

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"The more I sweated in the gym, the less I bleed in the ring."

JCC

Well, apparently the computer I guess didn't agree with most historians. (smiling)

If most historians say that Ali would have been too much for Rocky? I would have to disagree with most historians.(wink)

I say, basically the same thing the computer said that Marciano would get the knockout.

Only the computer called the round, but I would do that! But maybe the computer is smarter than me? LOL ... But I will say, the more rounds Ali were to go with Marciano especially a 15 round fight! Would be no advandage for Ali, not with a guy like Marciano. It would mean only just more chance of getting knocked out by Marciano.

I believe Marciano would get the knockout ... in a fight with Ali ... and most especially in a 15 round fight.

Of course, the computer fight was no real fight! But the computer said Marciano would get the knockout in the 13 th round. If it had been a real fight? I don't see that as being unrealistic and easily may well could have happened.

But as for Ali ... to go the distance in a 15 round fight .. with Maricano? .. Forget about it! That mostly likely could never happen. Not with Marciano it couldn't.

I say, Marciano would get the knockout and most likely it would be in a late round. The computer put it in the 13th round ... that doesn't seem so unrealistic. At least not to me it doesn't.

Any way, it's just an opinion of course, but in something like this one person's opinion is as good as any body else's I guess, for it's purely hypothenical. No one can be sure.

But I say, Marciano would win by a knockout and most likely it would be in a late round.

JC

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"The more I sweated in the gym, the less I bleed in the ring."

bill1234

Beleive it or not they actualy hit each other.When the computer did the fight, it was originaly filmed in the mid 60's, and Marciano and Ali would go into the ring with head gear on, and hit eachother. NOT as fast as they could, but definately as hard. They also wore these cover things around there gut too. After one session of it Angelo Dundee(Ali/Clay's manager/trainer) asked Ali what is was like to be fighting Rocky Marciano, and Ali/Clay replied "He's Crazy! This man is crazy!!!" and then he lifted up the cover to reveil huge red welts where Marciano had hit him in the stomach. And that was when Marciano was in his 40's! So can you imagine how powerful he was when he held his title!?

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MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008