Sugar Ray Robinson - The Greatest of ALL Time

• Any wins over proven quality opposition (currently B- / B / A- / A rated at the time of the fight)​

• Losses that occurred during the near prime but pre-prime​
• Losses that occurred during the prime​
• Losses that occurred during the near prime but post-prime​

• Any disputed victory or defeat regardless of prime status or quality of opposition​

• No-contests become notable for a fighter if he was clearly winning​
• Quality of opposition is relevant​

• B- rated fighters are worth .5 points​
• B rated fighters are worth 1 point​
• A- rated fighters are worth 1.5 points​
• A rated fighters are worth 2 points​
• Repeat victories over an opponent are worth half the original point value​
• In the case of a notable NC half the appropriate point value is given​

• Prime losses by decision cost 2 points, pre / post cost 1 point​
• Prime losses by stoppage cost 4 points, pre / post cost 2 points​
• Repeat losses cost half the appropriate value​

• A fighter must have multiple wins over other credible opponents at some point in his career​
• Over the hill 'A' level fighters count as 'A- / B / B-' level depending on how great they still are​
• Post-Prime fighters can lose only half a grade at most ​
• When a great fighter becomes reduced to below B- level performances, he is considered shot and a win over such a fighter is not counted
  
• Exceptions can be made to the above stated rules, but will be noted​

Obama said:

Sugar Ray Robinson​

Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had a record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan.


Middleweight Career:


Notable Championship Wins:
Jake LaMotta (TKO 13)
Randy Turpin (TKO 10)
Rocky Graziano (KO 3)
Bobo Olson (UD 15) (KO 2) (KO 4)
Gene Fullmer (KO 5)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


Notable Championship Losses:
Randy Turpin (PTS 15)
Gene Fullmer (UD 15)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


In 29 fights, starting from when he won the Middleweight Championship the first time to losing it for the last time he had 22 wins, 6 losses, and 1 NC. One loss came when he challenged for the Light Heavyweight title and was winning the fight on all cards decisively but was unable to make it off his stool going into the 14th round due to heat prostration from the 100+ degree temperature. Of the remaining 5 losses, 2 were by split decision, and he was never knocked out. And just for the record, he was never knocked out in his entire 25 year / 203 fight career. But getting back on subject, he avenged all of his losses in Middleweight title fights during this period except for the last against Paul Pender (after Robinson was already clearly over the hill). Pender would later retire as Middleweight Champion. By the time he fought Pender, Robinson already had 20 years and 150 fights under his belt.


It's also important to note that Robinson as a Welterweight had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times prior to their Middleweight Championship bout. During these times LaMotta was always considered a top contender, but due to Zale being drafted, then poor management and bad dealings with the mob, LaMotta simply could not get a title shot until 1949. From as early as 1942 (just two years into Robinson's career) he would fight Middleweights in between Welterweight fights starting with Jake LaMotta. 8 years would go by before Robinson's second loss to a Middleweight (Randy Turpin). When Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts.


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time:
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Losses:
Jake LaMotta II
Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm


That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.




Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time:
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young
Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.


So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up. Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


So why do people consider guys like Marvin Hagler greater Middleweights than Sugar Ray Robinson? Do people fault Robinson for Tony Zale being drafted and causing the Middleweight title to be hijacked for half of the 40s? When Tony finally came back, he had his little trilogy with Graziano, then immediately lost to Cerdan, who would lose to LaMotta in less than a year. While Cerdan was still prime (before his brief stint as World Champion) his handlers never made a fight with Robinson happen. Actually, from 1943 to until Cerdan became Champion, Cerdan was never rated higher than #3 in the Ring Annual Ratings, was never rated at all prior to 1943, and was not rated in the year 1944. So what could Robinson have done to prove he could have beat any Middleweight during most of the 40s other than what he already did? I mean, I guess during the early 40s one could claim he could have fought Holman Williams and the Cocoa Kid before they were washed up, and during any time in the 40s he could have fought Charley Burley. These guys really were the best there were, but since they were Black and their name wasn't Sugar, they were mainly ducked by marquee fighters. Considering they all held the Colored World Middleweight Championship, I don't think I need to substantiate that. Those fights would have pretty much been considered high risk with no reward for Robinson. Cerdan and LaMotta however would later fight Holman Williams. Problem was, the early 40s were long gone and Holman was already washed up.


Anyhow, if not fighting 3 guys that no one else would during the 40s keeps Robinson out of contention as the greatest Middleweight ever next to Harry Greb, then perhaps Hagler's 2 losses and 1 draw with the Philadelphia boys (who come nowhere near the greatness of the 3 Colored Middleweight Champions I just mentioned) should be held against him too. Non-believers in Robinson's ability as a Middleweight either set some absurdly high standards, or simply don't know enough facts. If I did this kind of Middleweight analysis with anyone else, only Harry Greb would look worthy. Both Hagler and Monzon have only fought briefly past their prime, and neither fought after they were over the hill. Not to mention, Monzon really should have been a Light Heavyweight. Robinson and Greb were still beating the best there was while washed up, that says a lot. And while they were past their prime, they managed to still beat better guys than Hagler or Monzon ever did IN their prime. And that, is truly impressive.




Overall Career Analysis:


*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings


SRR Unquantified-but-Detailed Resume:
Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, Vinnie Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino) (Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson)
(Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl)
(Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson) (George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins) (Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood)
(Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby ***** (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron) (Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch)
(Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958)
(#1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)




Sugar Ray Robinson


Notable Wins:
Pete Lello
Sammy Angott (x3) [Lightweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Shapiro
Marty Servo (x2) [Undefeated] [Future Welterweight Champion]
Fritzie Zivic (x2) [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Berger [Former Junior Welterweight Champion]
Norman Rubio (x2)
Reuben Shank
Tony Motisi
Jake LaMotta (x5) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Izzy Janazzo (x4) [Post-Prime]
Vic Dellicurti (x2)
Al Nettlow
California Jackie Wilson (x2)
Ralph Zannelli
Henry Armstrong [Post-Prime] [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Sheik Rangel
George Martin
Tommy Bell (x2)
George Costner (x2)
Jimmy McDaniels
O'Neill Bell
Joe Curcio
Vinnie Vines
Ossie Harris
Cecil Hudson I
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Billy Nixon
Henry Brimm
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavilan (x2) [Future Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby Lee(x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Steve Belloise
Al Mobley
Aaron Wade [Over the Hill]
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Charley Fusari
Jose Basora
Joe Rindone (x2)
Bobo Olson (x4) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby *****
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Holley Mims [Pre-Prime]
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Rocky Graziano [Post-Prime] [Former Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Gene Fullmer [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Carmen Basilio [Welterweight and Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Denny Moyer [Light Middleweight Champion]
Ralph Dupas [Light Middleweight Champion]
Yoland Leveque
Notable Losses:
Jake LaMotta II [Robinson outweighed by 16 lbs]
Randy Turpin I [Ehm...Turpin was a beast?]
Joey Maxim [Robinson had the fight won but feinted in the hot sun]
Ralph Tiger Jones [Robinson Post-Prime & Rusty]
Gene Fullmer I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Carmen Basilio I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Notable NCs:
Gerhard Hecht
Questionable Wins:
Marty Servo II
Jake LaMotta V
Georgie Abrams
Ralph Dupas [Robinson over the hill]
Questionable Losses:
Paul Pender (x2)
Questionable Draws:
Jose Basura [Could have gone either way, Robinson would KO Basura in 1 round 5 years later]
Gene Fullmer III [Should have gone to Robinson]

'A' level wins:​

Sammy Angott (x3), Fritzie Zivic (x2), Jake LaMotta (x5), Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan (x2), Bobo Olson (x4), Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio​

'A-' level wins:​

Marty Servo (x2), Tommy Bell (x2), George Costner (x2), Jimmy Doyle, Robert Villemain (x2), Rocky Graziano, Rocky Castellani, Denny Moyer​

'B' level wins:​

Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby *****, Cyrille Delannoit​

'B-' level wins:​

Maxie Shapiro, Maxie Berger, Tony Motisi, Izzy Janazzo (x4), Vic Dellicurti (x2), Al Nettlow, Sheik Rangel, George Martin, Vinnie Vines, Ossie Harris I, Billy Nixon, Henry Brimm, Bobby Lee (x2), Al Mobley, Aaron Wade, Ray Barnes, Jean Stock, Luc van Dam, Hans Stretz, Holley Mims, Garth Panter, Yoland Leveque, Gerhard Hecht (half credit)​

Point Total: 29 + 15 + 23 + 12 – 9 = 70​

*Note 1, for the sake of argument, considered Robinson prime up until his first retirement.​

*Note 2, only counted the TKO loss to Maxim as a 2 pt deduction due to the extreme environmental hazard that would have otherwise resulted in a decision win for Robinson.​

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Experts seem to agree that Sugar Ray Robinson was, pound for pound, the greatest fighter in boxing history. But that argument is not as clear-cut as it might seem.

There's no denying that an extremely strong case can be made for the five-time middleweight champion.

If there was ever a perfect fighting package, Robinson was probably it. He was fast and elusive, he was clever, and he had power in both hands.

How tough was he? He fought 200 times as a professional and was stopped just once. And it wasn't a true knockout. He collapsed from heat exhaustion after the 13th round of a fight he was winning – against world light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim.

So good was Sugar Ray that he could boast a record of 123-1-2 – before he turned 30. He remained good after his 30th birthday, and was able to beat the best middleweights in the world when he was past 35.

Robinson fought until he was 44, finishing with 173 wins, 19 losses and six draws, with 108 knockouts. Two of his bouts were declared no contests. His record includes wins over all-time greats like Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Rocky Graziano, Carmen Basilio and Kid Gavilan.

Twenty years after his death, Robinson still holds impressive titles. The Associated Press ranked him as the best fighter of the 20th century; The Ring magazine, in 2004, rated him as the best fighter of the past 80 years. ESPN declared Robinson as the all-time best in 2007.

But there's a chance that Robinson was not the greatest of all time. In fact, there's a chance he wasn't even the greatest middleweight. A fighter named Harry Greb has some good arguments of his own.


Who Was Harry Greb?

Greb, known as the "Pittsburgh Windmill," fought from 1913 to 1926. His official record stands at 105-8-3 with 48 knockouts, and 183 no-decisions.

In Greb's time, fights that went the distance were often not scored by judges, so unofficial decisions rendered by ringside reporters were used to determine who held the upper hand. With those "newspaper decisions" taken into account, Greb has 260 wins, 19 losses and 19 draws according to BoxRec.com.

In any case, Greb was an indomitable force. He wasn't a huge puncher, but he was fast and shrewd. He'd swarm his opponents and engulf them with punches thrown from every angle.

Like many of the brawlers of his day, Greb wasn't above fighting dirty. But he was also rugged and durable. In a career that included nearly 300 bouts, he was stopped only twice.

The first occasion came in his seventh bout, in 1913, when a 19-year-old Greb was halted in the second round by an opponent who outweighed him by 14 pounds. The second came in a 1915 bout, when he suffered a broken arm and was forced to retire after the second round.

But usually, Greb wore his opponents down, as his stamina was legendary.

And remarkably, he compiled his incredible record by age 32. That's when he died as a result of complications from eye surgery in 1926.


Greb Fought All Comers

Like Robinson, Greb faced a number of former, current and future world titleholders, and he also reigned as a world champion in two weight divisions -- middleweight and light heavyweight, in his case.

While a color line existed during Greb's career, he ignored it and fought all comers. He also tended to ignore weight classifications. The 5-foof-9 Greb was perfectly willing to square off with heavyweights. He fought a number of big names from that weight division and more than held his own.

Greb was the only man to beat the great Gene Tunney, winning a convincing 15-round decision in 1922. The two fought four more times, with Tunney winning three decisions and another bout ending in a draw. Tunney would go on to defeat Jack Dempsey to claim the heavyweight championship.

Greb also tangled with International Boxing Hall of Fame members like Mickey Walker, Jack Dillon, Tiger Flowers, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran and Tommy Burns.

Greb Fought While 'Stone Blind' in Right Eye
Amazingly, Greb fought the final five years of his career with a severe eye injury that reportedly led to blindness in his right eye.

On Oct. 23, 1926, shortly after Greb's death, the New York Times reported that Greb's personal physician "broke a five-year silence and issued a statement to the effect that Greb had been stone blind in his right eye for that length of time and had carried a glass eye since August of this year."

The physician, Dr. Carl S. McGivern, said the fateful injury was inflicted during a 1921 bout with heavyweight Kid Norfolk, the Times reported. That would mean Greb fought 85 times -- including all five bouts with Tunney -- without vision in his right eye.

Greb's death came less than two months after his final bout -- a controversial decision loss to Flowers. Ironically, Flowers, who had earlier dethroned Greb to become the first African-American middleweight champion, would die a year later, also because of complications from eye surgery.


The Greb vs. Robinson Debate

Robinson fought an awful lot, but Greb fought even more – and he did so more frequently against bigger men.

Sugar Ray was actually a better welterweight than he was as a middleweight. In fact, he had well over 100 bouts before he began to campaign full-time in the higher weight division.

It might be said that Robinson's most famous exploits came when he was already past his prime. Yet even he couldn't keep it up together forever. Ten of his 19 losses came after his 40th birthday.

As for Greb, his rough patches came early in his career. He did lost two of his last four bouts, but both were close, controversial decisions to fellow hall-of-famer Flowers – someone Greb had beaten earlier.

One can only speculate what would have happened with Greb if he hadn't died so early. Maybe his career would have gone into a steep decline.

But one can only speculate how good he would have been if he had two good eyes for the final five years of his career.

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