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Old 05-28-2009, 07:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Sugar Ray Robinson - The Greatest of ALL Time

Sugar Ray Robinson


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan.


Middleweight Career:


Notable Championship Wins:
Jake LaMotta (TKO 13)
Randy Turpin (TKO 10)
Rocky Graziano (KO 3)
Bobo Olson (UD 15) (KO 2) (KO 4)
Gene Fullmer (KO 5)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


Notable Championship Losses:
Randy Turpin (PTS 15)
Gene Fullmer (UD 15)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


In 29 fights, starting from when he won the Middleweight Championship the first time to losing it for the last time he had 22 wins, 6 losses, and 1 NC. One loss came when he challenged for the Light Heavyweight title and was winning the fight on all cards decisively but was unable to make it off his stool going into the 14th round due to heat prostration from the 100+ degree temperature. Of the remaining 5 losses, 2 were by split decision, and he was never knocked out. And just for the record, he was never knocked out in his entire 25 year / 203 fight career. But getting back on subject, he avenged all of his losses in Middleweight title fights during this period except for the last against Paul Pender (after Robinson was already clearly over the hill). Pender would later retire as Middleweight Champion. By the time he fought Pender, Robinson already had 20 years and 150 fights under his belt.


It's also important to note that Robinson as a Welterweight had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times prior to their Middleweight Championship bout. During these times LaMotta was always considered a top contender, but due to Zale being drafted, then poor management and bad dealings with the mob, LaMotta simply could not get a title shot until 1949. From as early as 1942 (just two years into Robinson's career) he would fight Middleweights in between Welterweight fights starting with Jake LaMotta. 8 years would go by before Robinson's second loss to a Middleweight (Randy Turpin). When Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts.


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time:
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Losses:
Jake LaMotta II
Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm


That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.




Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time:
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin

Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano

Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani

Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

Bob Young
Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.


So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up. Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


So why do people consider guys like Marvin Hagler greater Middleweights than Sugar Ray Robinson? Do people fault Robinson for Tony Zale being drafted and causing the Middleweight title to be hijacked for half of the 40s? When Tony finally came back, he had his little trilogy with Graziano, then immediately lost to Cerdan, who would lose to LaMotta in less than a year. While Cerdan was still prime (before his brief stint as World Champion) his handlers never made a fight with Robinson happen. Actually, from 1943 to until Cerdan became Champion, Cerdan was never rated higher than #3 in the Ring Annual Ratings, was never rated at all prior to 1943, and was not rated in the year 1944. So what could Robinson have done to prove he could have beat any Middleweight during most of the 40s other than what he already did? I mean, I guess during the early 40s one could claim he could have fought Holman Williams and the Cocoa Kid before they were washed up, and during any time in the 40s he could have fought Charley Burley. These guys really were the best there were, but since they were Black and their name wasn't Sugar, they were mainly ducked by marquee fighters. Considering they all held the Colored World Middleweight Championship, I don't think I need to substantiate that. Those fights would have pretty much been considered high risk with no reward for Robinson. Cerdan and LaMotta however would later fight Holman Williams. Problem was, the early 40s were long gone and Holman was already washed up.


Anyhow, if not fighting 3 guys that no one else would during the 40s keeps Robinson out of contention as the greatest Middleweight ever next to Harry Greb, then perhaps Hagler's 2 losses and 1 draw with the Philadelphia boys (who come nowhere near the greatness of the 3 Colored Middleweight Champions I just mentioned) should be held against him too. Non-believers in Robinson's ability as a Middleweight either set some absurdly high standards, or simply don't know enough facts. If I did this kind of Middleweight analysis with anyone else, only Harry Greb would look worthy. Both Hagler and Monzon have only fought briefly past their prime, and neither fought after they were over the hill. Not to mention, Monzon really should have been a Light Heavyweight. Robinson and Greb were still beating the best there was while washed up, that says a lot. And while they were past their prime, they managed to still beat better guys than Hagler or Monzon ever did IN their prime. And that, is truly impressive.




Overall Career Analysis:


*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings


SRR Unquantified-but-Detailed Resume:
Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino)
(Andy Callahan)

Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson)
(Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)

Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl)
(Billy Tierney)

Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson)
(George Costner, George Duke, etc)

Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins)
(Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)

Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood)
(Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)

Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron)
(Edouard Tenet)

Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch)
(Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)

Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)

Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958)
(#1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)

Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)




Sugar Ray Robinson


Notable Wins:
Pete Lello
Sammy Angott (x3) [Lightweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Shapiro
Marty Servo (x2) [Undefeated] [Future Welterweight Champion]
Fritzie Zivic (x2) [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Berger [Former Junior Welterweight Champion]
Norman Rubio (x2)
Reuben Shank
Tony Motisi
Jake LaMotta (x5) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Izzy Janazzo (x4) [Post-Prime]
Vic Dellicurti (x2)
Al Nettlow
California Jackie Wilson (x2)
Ralph Zannelli
Henry Armstrong [Post-Prime] [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Sheik Rangel
George Martin
Tommy Bell (x2)
George Costner (x2)
Jimmy McDaniels
O'Neill Bell
Joe Curcio
Vinnie Vines
Ossie Harris
Cecil Hudson I
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Billy Nixon
Chuck Taylor
Henry Brimm
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavilan (x2) [Future Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby Lee(x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Steve Belloise
Al Mobley
Aaron Wade [Over the Hill]
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Charley Fusari
Jose Basora
Joe Rindone (x2)
Bobo Olson (x4) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby Dykes
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Holley Mims [Pre-Prime]
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Rocky Graziano [Post-Prime] [Former Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Gene Fullmer [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Carmen Basilio [Welterweight and Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Denny Moyer [Light Middleweight Champion]
Ralph Dupas [Light Middleweight Champion]
Yoland Leveque
Notable Losses:
Jake LaMotta II [Robinson outweighed by 16 lbs]
Randy Turpin I [Ehm...Turpin was a beast?]
Joey Maxim [Robinson had the fight won but feinted in the hot sun]
Ralph Tiger Jones [Robinson Post-Prime & Rusty]
Gene Fullmer I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Carmen Basilio I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Notable NCs:
Gerhard Hecht
Questionable Wins:
Marty Servo II
Jake LaMotta V
Georgie Abrams
Artie Levine (long 10 count in 4th round)
Ralph Dupas [Robinson over the hill]
Questionable Losses:
Paul Pender (x2)
Questionable Draws:
Jose Basura [Could have gone either way, Robinson would KO Basura in 1 round 5 years later]
Gene Fullmer III [Should have gone to Robinson]




'A' level wins:
Sammy Angott (x3), Fritzie Zivic (x2), Jake LaMotta (x5), Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan (x2), Bobo Olson (x4), Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio
'A-' level wins:
Marty Servo (x2), Tommy Bell (x2), George Costner (x2), Jimmy Doyle, Robert Villemain (x2), Rocky Graziano, Rocky Castellani, Denny Moyer
'B' level wins:
Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit
'B-' level wins:
Maxie Shapiro, Maxie Berger, Tony Motisi, Izzy Janazzo (x4), Vic Dellicurti (x2), Al Nettlow, Sheik Rangel, George Martin, Vinnie Vines, Ossie Harris I, Billy Nixon, Chuck Taylor, Henry Brimm, Bobby Lee (x2), Al Mobley, Aaron Wade, Ray Barnes, Jean Stock, Luc van Dam, Hans Stretz, Holley Mims, Garth Panter, Yoland Leveque, Gerhard Hecht (half credit)

Point Total: 29 + 15 + 23 + 12.5 – 9 = 70.5

*Note 1, for the sake of argument, considered Robinson prime up until his first retirement.

*Note 2, only counted the TKO loss to Maxim as a 2 pt deduction due to the extreme environmental hazard that would have otherwise resulted in a decision win for Robinson.
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Last edited by Obama; 05-29-2009 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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As many of you will see from time to time I have my own numerical point system for evaluating a fighters career. This post is to explain how the system works. Please don't consider my system the be all and end all in regards to how I evaluate a fighter's career. It's just something I find useful to use when trying to narrow things down. Anyways, here it is:

Criteria
Notable Wins:
  • Any wins over proven quality opposition (currently B- / B / A- / A rated at the time of the fight)
Notable Losses:
  • Losses that occurred during the near prime but pre-prime
  • Losses that occurred during the prime
  • Losses that occurred during the near prime but post-prime
Questionable Wins / Losses / Draws:
  • Any disputed victory or defeat regardless of prime status or quality of opposition
Notable NCs:
  • No-contests become notable for a fighter if he was clearly winning
  • Quality of opposition is relevant
Quality Points:
  • B- rated fighters are worth .5 points
  • B rated fighters are worth 1 point
  • A- rated fighters are worth 1.5 points
  • A rated fighters are worth 2 points
  • Repeat victories over an opponent are worth half the original point value
  • In the case of a notable NC half the appropriate point value is given
Detraction Points:
  • Prime losses by decision cost 2 points, pre / post cost 1 point
  • Prime losses by stoppage cost 4 points, pre / post cost 2 points
  • Repeat losses cost half the appropriate value
Basic Rules for Defining a Fighter's Credibility:
  • A fighter must have multiple wins over other credible opponents at some point in his career
  • Over the hill 'A' level fighters count as 'A- / B / B-' level depending on how great they still are
  • Post-Prime fighters can lose only half a grade at most
  • When a great fighter becomes reduced to below B- level performances, he is considered shot and a win over such a fighter is not counted
  • Exceptions can be made to the above stated rules, but will be noted

I define a credible opponent by the accomplishment of beating 2 or more other credible fighters. Losses are not taken into account when assessing if another fighter is credible, unless a win over such a fighter came in a period of which that fighter did nothing but lose. Exceptions can be made for a fighter's credibility (should he not have at least 2 credible wins) if he was a victim of close decision losses or drew with 'A' level opponents. Also, exceptions can also be made that an over the hill former 'A' level fighter merely reduces to A- in the case that he was really 'A+' level to begin with. Also, opponents who normally fought 1 full weight class below the class that the fight took place at, who were able to beat credible opposition in the higher weight class, are considered credible as well. If you doubt the legitness of any of the names you see on these resumes, I encourage you to challenge me on it. I don't know everything, and I do make mistakes and/or over look things. I'm open to suggestions about my placement of opponents in the A / A- / B / B- departments. Please don't think of these ratings like real grades, A- and B- merely mean between A and B and between B and C respectively. For my point evaluations I go strictly by the record, no subjectivity involved.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Man, i'm going to look into this thing for a while. This is great, and really really shows how great Robinson really was compared to others that are considered close to him in greatness.

I'm telling you, a top 50 greatest boxers book under this point system and in-depth explanations and facts would basically sell itself. It'll get high praise, probably looked at as one of the most credible sources in ranking a fighter.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
Sugar Ray Robinson


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had a record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan.


Middleweight Career:


Notable Championship Wins:
Jake LaMotta (TKO 13)
Randy Turpin (TKO 10)
Rocky Graziano (KO 3)
Bobo Olson (UD 15) (KO 2) (KO 4)
Gene Fullmer (KO 5)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


Notable Championship Losses:
Randy Turpin (PTS 15)
Gene Fullmer (UD 15)
Carmen Basilio (SD 15)


In 29 fights, starting from when he won the Middleweight Championship the first time to losing it for the last time he had 22 wins, 6 losses, and 1 NC. One loss came when he challenged for the Light Heavyweight title and was winning the fight on all cards decisively but was unable to make it off his stool going into the 14th round due to heat prostration from the 100+ degree temperature. Of the remaining 5 losses, 2 were by split decision, and he was never knocked out. And just for the record, he was never knocked out in his entire 25 year / 203 fight career. But getting back on subject, he avenged all of his losses in Middleweight title fights during this period except for the last against Paul Pender (after Robinson was already clearly over the hill). Pender would later retire as Middleweight Champion. By the time he fought Pender, Robinson already had 20 years and 150 fights under his belt.


It's also important to note that Robinson as a Welterweight had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times prior to their Middleweight Championship bout. During these times LaMotta was always considered a top contender, but due to Zale being drafted, then poor management and bad dealings with the mob, LaMotta simply could not get a title shot until 1949. From as early as 1942 (just two years into Robinson's career) he would fight Middleweights in between Welterweight fights starting with Jake LaMotta. 8 years would go by before Robinson's second loss to a Middleweight (Randy Turpin). When Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts.


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time:
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Losses:
Jake LaMotta II
Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm


That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.




Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time:
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable


Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin

Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano

Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani

Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

Bob Young
Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.


So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up. Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


So why do people consider guys like Marvin Hagler greater Middleweights than Sugar Ray Robinson? Do people fault Robinson for Tony Zale being drafted and causing the Middleweight title to be hijacked for half of the 40s? When Tony finally came back, he had his little trilogy with Graziano, then immediately lost to Cerdan, who would lose to LaMotta in less than a year. While Cerdan was still prime (before his brief stint as World Champion) his handlers never made a fight with Robinson happen. Actually, from 1943 to until Cerdan became Champion, Cerdan was never rated higher than #3 in the Ring Annual Ratings, was never rated at all prior to 1943, and was not rated in the year 1944. So what could Robinson have done to prove he could have beat any Middleweight during most of the 40s other than what he already did? I mean, I guess during the early 40s one could claim he could have fought Holman Williams and the Cocoa Kid before they were washed up, and during any time in the 40s he could have fought Charley Burley. These guys really were the best there were, but since they were Black and their name wasn't Sugar, they were mainly ducked by marquee fighters. Considering they all held the Colored World Middleweight Championship, I don't think I need to substantiate that. Those fights would have pretty much been considered high risk with no reward for Robinson. Cerdan and LaMotta however would later fight Holman Williams. Problem was, the early 40s were long gone and Holman was already washed up.


Anyhow, if not fighting 3 guys that no one else would during the 40s keeps Robinson out of contention as the greatest Middleweight ever next to Harry Greb, then perhaps Hagler's 2 losses and 1 draw with the Philadelphia boys (who come nowhere near the greatness of the 3 Colored Middleweight Champions I just mentioned) should be held against him too. Non-believers in Robinson's ability as a Middleweight either set some absurdly high standards, or simply don't know enough facts. If I did this kind of Middleweight analysis with anyone else, only Harry Greb would look worthy. Both Hagler and Monzon have only fought briefly past their prime, and neither fought after they were over the hill. Not to mention, Monzon really should have been a Light Heavyweight. Robinson and Greb were still beating the best there was while washed up, that says a lot. And while they were past their prime, they managed to still beat better guys than Hagler or Monzon ever did IN their prime. And that, is truly impressive.




Overall Career Analysis:


*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings


SRR Unquantified-but-Detailed Resume:
Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, Vinnie Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino) (Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson)
(Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl)
(Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson) (George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins) (Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood)
(Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron) (Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch)
(Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958)
(#1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)




Sugar Ray Robinson


Notable Wins:
Pete Lello
Sammy Angott (x3) [Lightweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Shapiro
Marty Servo (x2) [Undefeated] [Future Welterweight Champion]
Fritzie Zivic (x2) [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Maxie Berger [Former Junior Welterweight Champion]
Norman Rubio (x2)
Reuben Shank
Tony Motisi
Jake LaMotta (x5) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Izzy Janazzo (x4) [Post-Prime]
Vic Dellicurti (x2)
Al Nettlow
California Jackie Wilson (x2)
Ralph Zannelli
Henry Armstrong [Post-Prime] [Former Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Sheik Rangel
George Martin
Tommy Bell (x2)
George Costner (x2)
Jimmy McDaniels
O'Neill Bell
Joe Curcio
Vinnie Vines
Ossie Harris
Cecil Hudson I
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Billy Nixon
Henry Brimm
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavilan (x2) [Future Welterweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby Lee(x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Steve Belloise
Al Mobley
Aaron Wade [Over the Hill]
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Charley Fusari
Jose Basora
Joe Rindone (x2)
Bobo Olson (x4) [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Bobby Dykes
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz
Holley Mims [Pre-Prime]
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Rocky Graziano [Post-Prime] [Former Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Gene Fullmer [Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Carmen Basilio [Welterweight and Middleweight Champion, Hall of Famer]
Denny Moyer [Light Middleweight Champion]
Ralph Dupas [Light Middleweight Champion]
Yoland Leveque
Notable Losses:
Jake LaMotta II [Robinson outweighed by 16 lbs]
Randy Turpin I [Ehm...Turpin was a beast?]
Joey Maxim [Robinson had the fight won but feinted in the hot sun]
Ralph Tiger Jones [Robinson Post-Prime & Rusty]
Gene Fullmer I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Carmen Basilio I [Robinson Post-Prime]
Notable NCs:
Gerhard Hecht
Questionable Wins:
Marty Servo II
Jake LaMotta V
Georgie Abrams
Ralph Dupas [Robinson over the hill]
Questionable Losses:
Paul Pender (x2)
Questionable Draws:
Jose Basura [Could have gone either way, Robinson would KO Basura in 1 round 5 years later]
Gene Fullmer III [Should have gone to Robinson]




'A' level wins:
Sammy Angott (x3), Fritzie Zivic (x2), Jake LaMotta (x5), Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan (x2), Bobo Olson (x4), Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio
'A-' level wins:
Marty Servo (x2), Tommy Bell (x2), George Costner (x2), Jimmy Doyle, Robert Villemain (x2), Rocky Graziano, Rocky Castellani, Denny Moyer
'B' level wins:
Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit
'B-' level wins:
Maxie Shapiro, Maxie Berger, Tony Motisi, Izzy Janazzo (x4), Vic Dellicurti (x2), Al Nettlow, Sheik Rangel, George Martin, Vinnie Vines, Ossie Harris I, Billy Nixon, Henry Brimm, Bobby Lee (x2), Al Mobley, Aaron Wade, Ray Barnes, Jean Stock, Luc van Dam, Hans Stretz, Holley Mims, Garth Panter, Yoland Leveque, Gerhard Hecht (half credit)

Point Total: 29 + 15 + 23 + 12 – 9 = 70

*Note 1, for the sake of argument, considered Robinson prime up until his first retirement.

*Note 2, only counted the TKO loss to Maxim as a 2 pt deduction due to the extreme environmental hazard that would have otherwise resulted in a decision win for Robinson.
thats 1 fighter i can never argue with you about Ray Robinson is definetly the greatest of all time no doubt about it.great post.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Good stuff. But I got an issue with the following

*Note 2, only counted the TKO loss to Maxim as a 2 pt deduction due to the extreme environmental hazard that would have otherwise resulted in a decision win for Robinson.

Like Maxim once said he did not have an air conditioner in his corner. He was fighting under the same conditions. It was a level playing field
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise View Post
Good stuff. But I got an issue with the following

*Note 2, only counted the TKO loss to Maxim as a 2 pt deduction due to the extreme environmental hazard that would have otherwise resulted in a decision win for Robinson.

Like Maxim once said he did not have an air conditioner in his corner. He was fighting under the same conditions. It was a level playing field
Hence I counted it as a loss...just not a KO loss. I'd extend the same courtesy to Maxim if it happened to him. It's a level playing field loss, but it's not a level playing field TKO in the scheme of TKOs throughout history. For instance guys today would never be subjected to those kinds of conditions, so why penalize older fighters for having it harder?
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential Violent Demise shows alot of potential
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Originally Posted by Obama View Post
Hence I counted it as a loss...just not a KO loss. I'd extend the same courtesy to Maxim if it happened to him. It's a level playing field loss, but it's not a level playing field TKO in the scheme of TKOs throughout history. For instance guys today would never be subjected to those kinds of conditions, so why penalize older fighters for having it harder?
Good enough for me
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