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Old 05-05-2009, 12:19 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Frazier has a pretty shocking rating, lol.
Yea that's what happens when 3 of your 4 losses are by KO and you never fought any truly elite fighters other than the guys who knocked you out...
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:33 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Yea that's what happens when 3 of your 4 losses are by KO and you never fought any truly elite fighters other than the guys who knocked you out...
Which begs the question of why he's generally considered a top 10 Heavyweight.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:36 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Which begs the question of why he's generally considered a top 10 Heavyweight.
The general thinking is that Ali struggled with him 3 times, lost once, and since he just happens to be the "GREATEST", Frazier must have to be rated pretty close to him. There's one historian I know who rated Joe Frazier #2 Heavyweight....couldn't find his name tho. Here's some rating lists I've compiled:

Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.
Jack Johnson
Jim Jeffries
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack Dempsey
Jim Corbett
Joe Louis
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
Max Schemling
Rocky Marciano

Charley Rose, 1968
Sam Langford
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Jim Jeffries
Gene Tunney
Sam McVey
Rocky Marciano
Jim Corbett
Max Baer

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Jim Jeffries
Sonny Liston
Ezzard Charles

Nat Loubet, 1975
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Corbett
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier

John Durant - Author of "The Heavyweight Champions"(1976)
Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Muhammad Ali
Gene Tunney
Joe Frazier
Jim Jeffries
James J. Corbett
Rocky Marciano
Max Schmeling

Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Jim Jeffries
Max Schemeling
Rocky Marciano
James J. Corebett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Joe Frazier
Jim Jeffries
Ezzard Charles
Sonny Liston

Gilbert Odd, 1985 (Kings of the Ring)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Floyd Patterson
Jack Dempsey
Jim Jeffries
Tommy Burns
Gene Tunney
Jim Corbett
Max Schmeling

Herbert G. Goldman, 1987
Muhammad Ali
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Harry Wills
George Foreman
Joe Frazier

Bert Sugar, 1991
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson

Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Jersey Joe Walcott
Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston

Nigel Collins, 1997

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Evander Holyfield
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston

Herbert Goldman, 1997
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
George Foreman
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier

Steve Farhood, 1997
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Jim Jeffries
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
George Foreman

BBC Sports, 2004
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
George Foreman
Evander Holyfield

IBRO Member Poll, 2005
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier

James Slater, 2006 (Boxing News and Views)
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield

ESPN, 2007
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Ezzard Charles
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes

Henry Hascup, 2008
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano

Ryan Bivins, 2008
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford


Harry Wills gets no love.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:40 PM   #104 (permalink)
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O yea, I just noticed if you type in "All Time Great Heavyweights" in google this thread is third down on the list. Gotta type it with the caps tho, otherwize it's further down...
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:26 PM   #105 (permalink)
 
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Yeah i agree, for me if Holyfield wouldave won the Bowe trilogy he would stand out as the best of the 3, but he did not so for me id have to go with Lewis based on his record. Oh and i actually have Ali as my ATG hw but i can see why you put Louis up there.
have to say lewis would stand out as my No1,however i wouldnt put liston in among that group he wasnt exceptional.its a pity that there isnt that calibre of heavyweights around to day instead we have overbloated,overated bums hanging on to belts that have no merit,gone are the days when heavyweight champ was the jewel in the crown.[ mores the pity ]
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:29 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Hey, Obama.. I was wondering about Klitschko and thought I'd throw up a quick one of your points system using your system. I want you to make any changes you see necessary..

Wladimir Klitschko
Notable Wins:
Hasim Rahman <Over the hill>
Ray Austin
Chris Byrd (x2) <Past his prime second time round>
Lamon Brewster
Tony Thompson
Calvin Brock <Undefeated>
Sultan Ibragimov
Samuel Peter <Undefeated>
Monte Barrett
Jameel McCline
Ray Mercer <Over the hill>
Axel Schulz
Francois Botha
Notable Losses:
Lamon Brewster
Corrie Sanders
Ross Purity <Klitschko green. Ahead on all scorecards but gassed>

'A' level wins:
Chris Byrd
'A-' level wins:
Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd (2nd), Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Monte Barrett, Lamon Brewster, Ray Austin, Francois Botha, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Mercer, Hasim Rahman

Point Total: 2 + 4.5 + 7 + 1.5 - 6 = 7

A few things to note. I consider all of Klitschkos losses to have come before his prime. I think it's clear that he's really developed his Boxing skills since his last defeat and is never reckless. His content to just sit and Box, which his good at.
I just wanted to give it a shot and see where Klitschko ranked in terms of resume rating.
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:12 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Hey, Obama.. I was wondering about Klitschko and thought I'd throw up a quick one of your points system using your system. I want you to make any changes you see necessary..

Wladimir Klitschko
Notable Wins:
Hasim Rahman <Over the hill>
Ray Austin
Chris Byrd (x2) <Past his prime second time round>
Lamon Brewster
Tony Thompson
Calvin Brock <Undefeated>
Sultan Ibragimov
Samuel Peter <Undefeated>
Monte Barrett
Jameel McCline
Ray Mercer <Over the hill>
Axel Schulz
Francois Botha
Notable Losses:
Lamon Brewster
Corrie Sanders
Ross Purity <Klitschko green. Ahead on all scorecards but gassed>

'A' level wins:
Chris Byrd
'A-' level wins:
Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd (2nd), Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Monte Barrett, Lamon Brewster, Ray Austin, Francois Botha, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Mercer, Hasim Rahman

Point Total: 2 + 4.5 + 7 + 1.5 - 6 = 7

A few things to note. I consider all of Klitschkos losses to have come before his prime. I think it's clear that he's really developed his Boxing skills since his last defeat and is never reckless. His content to just sit and Box, which his good at.
I just wanted to give it a shot and see where Klitschko ranked in terms of resume rating.
I wouldn't rate Rahman at all because he was B level in his prime, hence C at the time Wlad fought him.

If you checked when I did this for Lennox Lewis, I rated Botha B-. Steroid boy's only good win came from using steroids. All his other credible fights he either drew or lost, and the ones he drew with weren't exactly better than B level (Also rated Briggs B level on Lewis' resume).

Barrett is B-, all the decent fighters he beat were washed up save Dominick Guinn and Tye Fields, who are also B-. Barrett had too many losses against guys he should have beat. As an aside, Haye gets NO credit for beating Barrett.

Ray Austin is also B-. I don't see a need to explain this one.

A green Sam Peter A-? Sam Peter was A- from early 2007 to early 2008. And that's it. Before Peter fought Wlad, I can't recognize a single name on his resume. Now had he actually fought WELL in spite of this (ala Azumah Nelson vs Salvador Sanchez) the win would mean a little more. But considering that he pretty much lost every round he didn't knock Wlad down in, no dice. B level win.

As for Chris Byrd. Well, A/A- or A-/B, I won't really argue too much. I mean, he beat 1 A- guy (David Tua), but he beat him because Tua never had a chance stylistically. He got KOed by The President, Holyfield beat his ass in the final rounds, he was way behind in the Vitali fight...meh, I personally consider him A- in his prime. Had he beat another A- guy I would give him an A.

As for Wlad's losses. I'd completely throw out the Purity loss. I'd consider his loss to Sanders pre-prime, but Wlad has to take the full bite on the Brewster loss. That was only 5 years ago and Wlad is now 33 years old. He was already over 7 years into his career at the time of the fight, and had previously tasted defeat twice leading up to it. No excuses. Getting a better trainer doesn't excuse losing fights. If Ali didn't have Dundee he'd have quite a bit more losses and wouldn't make the top 5 all time Heavyweight list. BUT, he did have Dundee his whole career and thus is considered by some (naive individuals) "The Greatest".
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Old 05-23-2009, 04:09 AM   #108 (permalink)
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This is the revised rating from your post. Points wise it isn't that much different but looking at his resume it isn't all that impressive. Story of the Heavyweights really.

Wladimir Klitschko
Notable Wins:
Chris Byrd (x2) <Past his prime second time round>
Lamon Brewster
Ray Austin
Tony Thompson
Calvin Brock <Undefeated>
Sultan Ibragimov
Samuel Peter <Undefeated>
Monte Barrett
Jameel McCline
Ray Mercer <Over the hill>
Axel Schulz
Francois Botha
Notable Losses:
Lamon Brewster
Corrie Sanders

'A' level wins:
Chris Byrd
'A-' level wins:
Chris Byrd (2nd), Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Lamon Brewster, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock, Samuel Peter
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Austin, Ray Mercer, Monte Barrett, Frnacois Botha

Point Total: 2 + 3 + 5 + 1.5 - 6 = 5.5
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:48 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
This is the revised rating from your post. Points wise it isn't that much different but looking at his resume it isn't all that impressive. Story of the Heavyweights really.

Wladimir Klitschko
Notable Wins:
Chris Byrd (x2) <Past his prime second time round>
Lamon Brewster
Ray Austin
Tony Thompson
Calvin Brock <Undefeated>
Sultan Ibragimov
Samuel Peter <Undefeated>
Monte Barrett
Jameel McCline
Ray Mercer <Over the hill>
Axel Schulz
Francois Botha
Notable Losses:
Lamon Brewster
Corrie Sanders

'A' level wins:
Chris Byrd
'A-' level wins:
Chris Byrd (2nd), Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Lamon Brewster, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock, Samuel Peter
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Austin, Ray Mercer, Monte Barrett, Frnacois Botha

Point Total: 2 + 3 + 5 + 1.5 - 6 = 5.5
Should be 2 + 2.25 + 5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5.75

Which sadly outrates Joe Frazier.

Sometimes you gotta ignore the numbers...Wlad is not getting in my top 20.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:30 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Should be 2 + 2.25 + 5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5.75

Which sadly outrates Joe Frazier.

Sometimes you gotta ignore the numbers...Wlad is not getting in my top 20.
1.5 + 1.5 = 3. So it's 2 + 3 + 5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5.5.

Frazier has a pretty pitiful resume rating.
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