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Old 05-23-2009, 06:32 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Should be 2 + 2.25 + 5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5.75

Which sadly outrates Joe Frazier.

Sometimes you gotta ignore the numbers...Wlad is not getting in my top 20.
This actually annoyed me so much that I went back and looked at Frazier's record to see if I could throw some more points at him, and I did. I was taking 2 points away for the second loss to Ali, but I've opted to reduce it to 1 because it wasn't a KO/TKO, Frazier wanted to continue, and Ali was going to quit himself. Really just a bad break for Joe. So he's at 4.5 for me now.

Going back to Wlad, I did some more thinking on Chris Byrd. He's just not A level. Thinking back to what fighter he resembles from back in the day, and Jimmy Young comes to mind. I rated Jimmy Young an A-, and Jimmy > Chris. Jimmy beat a prime Lyle and Foreman, and probably got robbed against Ken Norton (Haven't seen the fight). I also already know he got robbed against Ali. Hmmm, maybe Young was A level... If I find out the robbery against Norton was as bad as the one against Ali, I will fix that. Sadly, that only boosts Ali's resume in my top 20.
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:42 AM   #112 (permalink)
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This actually annoyed me so much that I went back and looked at Frazier's record to see if I could throw some more points at him, and I did. I was taking 2 points away for the second loss to Ali, but I've opted to reduce it to 1 because it wasn't a KO/TKO, Frazier wanted to continue, and Ali was going to quit himself. Really just a bad break for Joe. So he's at 4.5 for me now.

Going back to Wlad, I did some more thinking on Chris Byrd. He's just not A level. Thinking back to what fighter he resembles from back in the day, and Jimmy Young comes to mind. I rated Jimmy Young an A-, and Jimmy > Chris. Jimmy beat a prime Lyle and Foreman, and probably got robbed against Ken Norton (Haven't seen the fight). I also already know he got robbed against Ali. Hmmm, maybe Young was A level... If I find out the robbery against Norton was as bad as the one against Ali, I will fix that. Sadly, that only boosts Ali's resume in my top 20.
You have a point with regards to Byrd but I can never rank him lower then A-. Young should be A- IMO.. he beats Lyle twice, Foreman and was robbed of a victory against Ali but loses to Norton, Cooney, Dokes, Shavers, Ali (officially). I think he ranks at A- based on his resume.

I'm 50/50 about Byrd being A level or A-. Tua, Vitali, McCline, Oquendo, Holyfield.. he has some good levels wins and was only beaten in his better days by Ibeabuchi & Wlad. Perhaps A- is the correct ranking but he can't go any lower.
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:42 AM   #113 (permalink)
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1.5 + 1.5 = 3. So it's 2 + 3 + 5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5.5.

Frazier has a pretty pitiful resume rating.
It's 1.5 + 0.75. He already beat him once, hence the rematch is worth half credit. But, I redid it my way and now have a 0.5 degree of separation between Wlad and Frazier:

'A' level wins:

None
'A-' level wins:
Chris Byrd I, Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Lamon Brewster, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock, Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd II
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Austin, Ray Mercer, Monte Barrett, Francois Botha

Point Total: 0 + 3 + 5.5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:47 AM   #114 (permalink)
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I also wish Sultan Ibragimov didn't dissapear from boxing. I have a sneaky suspicion he's also only a B level guy, just didn't stick around long enough for someone to prove it.
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:48 AM   #115 (permalink)
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It's 1.5 + 0.75. He already beat him once, hence the rematch is worth half credit. But, I redid it my way and now have a 0.5 degree of separation between Wlad and Frazier:

'A' level wins:

None
'A-' level wins:
Chris Byrd I, Sultan Ibragimov
'B' level wins:
Jameel McCline, Lamon Brewster, Tony Thompson, Calvin Brock, Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd II
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Ray Austin, Ray Mercer, Monte Barrett, Francois Botha

Point Total: 0 + 3 + 5.5 + 2.5 - 6 = 5
Ah, I didn't see that it was half the original value.

Resume wise he's still better then Frazier.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:15 AM   #116 (permalink)
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By the way...my new top 30:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
James J. Jeffries
Joe Jeannette
Jack Sharkey
Riddick Bowe
Sam McVea
Max Schmeling
Peter Jackson
Floyd Patterson
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Max Baer
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ken Norton
Tim Witherspoon
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Corbett

Took out the prospect Ike Ibeabuchi, and took out the disappointment Michael Moorer. Added two guys that all the oldschool raters had in the top 10. From top 10 to top 30...I believe is fair.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:38 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Obama View Post
By the way...my new top 30:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
James J. Jeffries
Joe Jeannette
Jack Sharkey
Riddick Bowe
Sam McVea
Max Schmeling
Peter Jackson
Floyd Patterson
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Max Baer
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ken Norton
Tim Witherspoon
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Corbett

Took out the prospect Ike Ibeabuchi, and took out the disappointment Michael Moorer. Added two guys that all the oldschool raters had in the top 10. From top 10 to top 30...I believe is fair.
Nice to Ezzard Charles getting some props as a Heavyweight. He's still an all time great HW but he is IMO the greatest LHW of all time. I'm a fan of Walcott as well.. that KO punch on Charles was unreal.

Just thought of Vitali Klitschko.. he has one of the worst A-Level heavyweight resume ever. It's pretty awful.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:16 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Wow man, great job Obama. I got through most of it, and will finish reading the rest tomorrrow. Good stuff.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:17 PM   #119 (permalink)
 
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I can't see how you've rated Joe Bugner as an A-. He lost to Shavers, Ali, Lyle, Frazier, Middleton, Bodell..

His major victories? Page, way past it Tillis, way past it Smith, past it Cooper, Wepner, past it Ellis, Foster..

I think he's a B-Level boxer and nothing more.

Aside from this, incredibly well produced post. You should look at extending it to 25 and possible 30 if time allows it.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:26 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I can't see how you've rated Joe Bugner as an A-. He lost to Shavers, Ali, Lyle, Frazier, Middleton, Bodell..

His major victories? Page, way past it Tillis, way past it Smith, past it Cooper, Wepner, past it Ellis, Foster..

I think he's a B-Level boxer and nothing more.

Aside from this, incredibly well produced post. You should look at extending it to 25 and possible 30 if time allows it.
I think one needs to take into account that Bugner was past it in a lot of his big name wins too. Also, the Lyle fight could have gone either way, and he beat London and Blin too. In reality maybe he's really B+. I just make no distinction between the two in my system.

Also, I have extended it to 25. Next is:

Peter Jackson
Floyd Patterson
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Gene Tunney
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