Originally Posted by Obama
Thanks, I try my best to show the difference between quantity wins and quality wins.
First of all I was sorry that you didn't make the funeral for Howie Albert. I gave the Eulogy in front of a couple of 100 people and a lot of boxing people attended including, Bill Gallo, Dave Anderson, Emile Griffith, Gil Clancy, Juan LaPorte, Lou Duva, Al Certo, Randy Neumann, Harold Weston, Richard Burton, Joe Antonacci, Bob Duffy, Matt Fargo, Irish Pat Murphy, Earl Morton, Steve Weisfeld plus several other members of Ring 8, Ring 25 and the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.
I looked at your blog and the material you wrote on Marciano looks very close to the material I wrote several years ago. Ha Ha! I really don't mind, because I feel its an honor if someone uses my material.
As far as this tread goes, I really like it a lot. As you know I love stats and it looks like your on the same page. We all can't agree with everything that someone writes and I don't agree with a few of yours.
When you say that Liston was over the hill when he fought Ali the 1st time. Back in 1962-63 all the boxing experts were saying that Liston belongs up their with all the all-time Greats. He just Ko'ed Patterson twice and nobody thought Ali had a chance of beating him at the time.
As far as "A" wins go, it is really up to the individual on how you rate them.
'A' level wins:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Farr, Schmeling, Conn I, Walcott (x2)
Carnera was never a Great boxer and after Baer beat him he was through.
M. Baer was one of the best if not the best boxer Louis ever went against.
Braddock was another not so Great boxer. I met Braddock several times. He had a 50-25-7 record going into the bout with Louis.
Farr was pretty good BUT he wasn't Great either. He had a 66-20-13 record going into the bout with Louis.
Schmeling was past his prime when he fought Louis. He was the Champion in 1932, he was stopped by Louis in 1937.
Conn I was an excellent boxer, and one of the top Light Heavyweight Champions ever.
Walcott was a very under rated boxer. When we put up a monument in Camden, NJ, I was the guest speaker. I also met him several times.
'A-' level wins:
Uzcudun was last rated in the top 10 in December 1933, he was stopped by Louis in December 1935. He won only 7 of his last 14 bouts before he fought Louis.
NOTE: You also have him as a "B" level win for Louis.
Lewis was the Light Heavyweight Champion at the time. Boxing people claim that Louis, who was a friend of Lewis's, just wanted to give him a last pay day.
Also, after losing via a first-round knockout to Joe Louis in a bid for the Heavyweight title, John Henry Lewis scheduled a Light Heavyweight title defense against Dave Clark on March 31, 1939 in Detroit. But, on March 17, two physicians examined his vision and determined that he was essentially blind in his left eye. Lewis would later admit that the injury, which had led to the blindness, occurred during a 1935 bout with Abe Feldman. Lewis's bout with Dave Clark was postponed and Lewis was then banned from boxing in Michigan. Lewis then unsuccessfully pursued a London title defense against Len Harvey. Lewis would then retire, and never fought again
Conn II, Conn's performance against Louis during this bout would earn him the Associated Press's annual "Flop of the Year" award. He hadn't fought in over 4 years.
NOTE: When you rate Ali, you forgot about Bob Foster, who was much better then Lewis and on a par with Conn. You also left out several other Top 10 contenders BUT I think I said enough on that.
I once put this up when I was comparing Ali with Louis:
Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.
I have my picks in BOLD
40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1
This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.