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Old 01-15-2009, 05:09 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jabutillurdown View Post
I read your blog and i respect your decision. i like how you broke down all of his better opponents and put into perspective their size and circumstances of when Marciano faced them.
Thanks, I try my best to show the difference between quantity wins and quality wins.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:27 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Wow. This has got to be the most in depth thread in the history of this site. Nice.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Wow. This has got to be the most in depth thread in the history of this site. Nice.
It was ~70 hours worth of work, thanks.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks, I try my best to show the difference between quantity wins and quality wins.
First of all I was sorry that you didn't make the funeral for Howie Albert. I gave the Eulogy in front of a couple of 100 people and a lot of boxing people attended including, Bill Gallo, Dave Anderson, Emile Griffith, Gil Clancy, Juan LaPorte, Lou Duva, Al Certo, Randy Neumann, Harold Weston, Richard Burton, Joe Antonacci, Bob Duffy, Matt Fargo, Irish Pat Murphy, Earl Morton, Steve Weisfeld plus several other members of Ring 8, Ring 25 and the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.

I looked at your blog and the material you wrote on Marciano looks very close to the material I wrote several years ago. Ha Ha! I really don't mind, because I feel its an honor if someone uses my material.

As far as this tread goes, I really like it a lot. As you know I love stats and it looks like your on the same page. We all can't agree with everything that someone writes and I don't agree with a few of yours.

When you say that Liston was over the hill when he fought Ali the 1st time. Back in 1962-63 all the boxing experts were saying that Liston belongs up their with all the all-time Greats. He just Ko'ed Patterson twice and nobody thought Ali had a chance of beating him at the time.

As far as "A" wins go, it is really up to the individual on how you rate them.
On Louis:
'A' level wins:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Farr, Schmeling, Conn I, Walcott (x2)

Carnera was never a Great boxer and after Baer beat him he was through.

M. Baer was one of the best if not the best boxer Louis ever went against.

Braddock was another not so Great boxer. I met Braddock several times. He had a 50-25-7 record going into the bout with Louis.

Farr was pretty good BUT he wasn't Great either. He had a 66-20-13 record going into the bout with Louis.

Schmeling was past his prime when he fought Louis. He was the Champion in 1932, he was stopped by Louis in 1937.

Conn I was an excellent boxer, and one of the top Light Heavyweight Champions ever.

Walcott was a very under rated boxer. When we put up a monument in Camden, NJ, I was the guest speaker. I also met him several times.

'A-' level wins:
Uzcudun was last rated in the top 10 in December 1933, he was stopped by Louis in December 1935. He won only 7 of his last 14 bouts before he fought Louis.
NOTE: You also have him as a "B" level win for Louis.

Lewis was the Light Heavyweight Champion at the time. Boxing people claim that Louis, who was a friend of Lewis's, just wanted to give him a last pay day.

Also, after losing via a first-round knockout to Joe Louis in a bid for the Heavyweight title, John Henry Lewis scheduled a Light Heavyweight title defense against Dave Clark on March 31, 1939 in Detroit. But, on March 17, two physicians examined his vision and determined that he was essentially blind in his left eye. Lewis would later admit that the injury, which had led to the blindness, occurred during a 1935 bout with Abe Feldman. Lewis's bout with Dave Clark was postponed and Lewis was then banned from boxing in Michigan. Lewis then unsuccessfully pursued a London title defense against Len Harvey. Lewis would then retire, and never fought again

Conn II, Conn's performance against Louis during this bout would earn him the Associated Press's annual "Flop of the Year" award. He hadn't fought in over 4 years.

NOTE: When you rate Ali, you forgot about Bob Foster, who was much better then Lewis and on a par with Conn. You also left out several other Top 10 contenders BUT I think I said enough on that.


I once put this up when I was comparing Ali with Louis:

Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.

I have my picks in BOLD

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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First of all I was sorry that you didn't make the funeral for Howie Albert. I gave the Eulogy in front of a couple of 100 people and a lot of boxing people attended including, Bill Gallo, Dave Anderson, Emile Griffith, Gil Clancy, Juan LaPorte, Lou Duva, Al Certo, Randy Neumann, Harold Weston, Richard Burton, Joe Antonacci, Bob Duffy, Matt Fargo, Irish Pat Murphy, Earl Morton, Steve Weisfeld plus several other members of Ring 8, Ring 25 and the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.

I looked at your blog and the material you wrote on Marciano looks very close to the material I wrote several years ago. Ha Ha! I really don't mind, because I feel its an honor if someone uses my material.

As far as this tread goes, I really like it a lot. As you know I love stats and it looks like your on the same page. We all can't agree with everything that someone writes and I don't agree with a few of yours.

When you say that Liston was over the hill when he fought Ali the 1st time. Back in 1962-63 all the boxing experts were saying that Liston belongs up their with all the all-time Greats. He just Ko'ed Patterson twice and nobody thought Ali had a chance of beating him at the time.

As far as "A" wins go, it is really up to the individual on how you rate them.
On Louis:
'A' level wins:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Farr, Schmeling, Conn I, Walcott (x2)

Carnera was never a Great boxer and after Baer beat him he was through.

M. Baer was one of the best if not the best boxer Louis ever went against.

Braddock was another not so Great boxer. I met Braddock several times. He had a 50-25-7 record going into the bout with Louis.

Farr was pretty good BUT he wasn't Great either. He had a 66-20-13 record going into the bout with Louis.

Schmeling was past his prime when he fought Louis. He was the Champion in 1932, he was stopped by Louis in 1937.

Conn I was an excellent boxer, and one of the top Light Heavyweight Champions ever.

Walcott was a very under rated boxer. When we put up a monument in Camden, NJ, I was the guest speaker. I also met him several times.

'A-' level wins:
Uzcudun was last rated in the top 10 in December 1933, he was stopped by Louis in December 1935. He won only 7 of his last 14 bouts before he fought Louis.
NOTE: You also have him as a "B" level win for Louis.

Lewis was the Light Heavyweight Champion at the time. Boxing people claim that Louis, who was a friend of Lewis's, just wanted to give him a last pay day.

Also, after losing via a first-round knockout to Joe Louis in a bid for the Heavyweight title, John Henry Lewis scheduled a Light Heavyweight title defense against Dave Clark on March 31, 1939 in Detroit. But, on March 17, two physicians examined his vision and determined that he was essentially blind in his left eye. Lewis would later admit that the injury, which had led to the blindness, occurred during a 1935 bout with Abe Feldman. Lewis's bout with Dave Clark was postponed and Lewis was then banned from boxing in Michigan. Lewis then unsuccessfully pursued a London title defense against Len Harvey. Lewis would then retire, and never fought again

Conn II, Conn's performance against Louis during this bout would earn him the Associated Press's annual "Flop of the Year" award. He hadn't fought in over 4 years.

NOTE: When you rate Ali, you forgot about Bob Foster, who was much better then Lewis and on a par with Conn. You also left out several other Top 10 contenders BUT I think I said enough on that.


I once put this up when I was comparing Ali with Louis:

Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.

I have my picks in BOLD

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.
I'm also sorry I missed the service, the weather was bad that day and I was not up for driving a 170 mile round trip in it.

My Marciano Blog, I've told you before I used stats I got from you to write it. We may draw some of the same conclusions from things, but that's to be expected.

For my placings of fighters into A/A-/B/B- categories, I rate them as their ability at the time of the fight. So even guys with not so great careers during spots could have been very game at the time, as was the case with the Cinderella Man. And I don't know what you classify as great. I consider my top 20 greats, and those below them (21-50 or so) very good. If they're at least very good, they're A level for the purposes of my ratings.

Funny thing about accidentally adding Uzcudun twice, I never even added him up in the B level win category. The math still comes out the same.

Thanks for the history lesson, I knew everything aside from the John Henry Lewis being blind bit. Pretty amazing however that he was on a 15 fight winning streak leading up to the Louis fight, including solid B level fighters in Al Gainer and Johnny Risko. So placing him A- I don't see all that far fetched. He's obviously seen better days, otherwise I would have rated him A level.

O and I didn't forget about Bob Foster, he just didn't make my criteria to get on the list. The rules state credible opponents must have had at least 2 wins over other credible Heavyweights. He does not have those wins. If you want to tell me who I'm missing tell me who meets my criteria that I did not add. You may need to read more of my criteria, I was pretty in depth with it. Thanks.
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Last edited by Obama; 01-15-2009 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:31 PM   #26 (permalink)
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For my placings of fighters into A/A-/B/B- categories, I rate them as their ability at the time of the fight. So even guys with not so great careers during spots could have been very game at the time, as was the case with the Cinderella Man. And I don't know what you classify as great. I consider my top 20 greats, and those below them (21-50 or so) very good. If they're at least very good, they're A level for the purposes of my ratings.

Funny thing about accidentally adding Uzcudun twice, I never even added him up in the B level win category. The math still comes out the same.
I still wouldn't rate Uzcudun a class "A" boxer after winning just 7 of his last 14 bouts before he fought Louis. AND he wasn't even rated in the Top 10 for over 2 years.

Like I said, everybody has their own way of rating boxers. Yours is very good BUT we will have to agree to not agree on some of the ratings.

I have tried many many ways of ratings boxers, by using different systems BUT none are exact.

The way I rate them is by the following.

1. Who they fought and beat, which takes in a lot. I have done years of research on this.
2. Their overall record, 49-0 for Rocky BUT who did he beat in their prime.
3. Watching countless amount of films
4. Listening to what other top boxing historians & experts

I know there others BUT I just can't think of them right now.

Again, try to match the boxers that Ali beat against the boxers that Louis beat, or any other Heavyweight Champion.

As far as rating Wills, Langford and the other Great Black boxers, its very hard to do that without seeing them box. If I go by what others have to say, the people that actually saw them box, I would have to rate both Wills and Langford in my top 20.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:42 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I still wouldn't rate Uzcudun a class "A" boxer after winning just 7 of his last 14 bouts before he fought Louis. AND he wasn't even rated in the Top 10 for over 2 years.
Well I rated him A-, not A. And I did that because he'd beaten an A level fighter in Baer, and drew with an A level fighter in Schmeling. Yes he also lost to Schmeling and Carnera recently, but since I rate them A level that cannot lower him to B. These are not real grades here, otherwise there would be A+ and B+. A- just means he's between A level and B level.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:56 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Well I rated him A-, not A. And I did that because he'd beaten an A level fighter in Baer, and drew with an A level fighter in Schmeling. Yes he also lost to Schmeling and Carnera recently, but since I rate them A level that cannot lower him to B. These are not real grades here, otherwise there would be A+ and B+. A- just means he's between A level and B level.
Like I said, everyone has their own way of rating them. We differ in this.

My 2 very good friends, Lou Duva and Al Certo, both rtae Marciano as the #1 Heavyweight of all-times. I once drove Certo home from New York along with Howie Albert and my wife Joyce and we went over that in detail. At the end, Al said, Henry I can't win with you because you really know your stuff. Both Al and Lou were their last Tuesday for the funeral for Howie and also stood along side of all the boxing people while I gave Howie a 20 minute Eulogy, which I never use any notes, it just comes off the top of my head.

I have done approx. 200 Eulogy's for boxing people over the years and its still the hardest thing I have to do. The Eulogy isn't hard, its ringing the bell that's hard. I ring it 9 times, because part of them will live on.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:03 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Like I said, everyone has their own way of rating them. We differ in this.

My 2 very good friends, Lou Duva and Al Certo, both rtae Marciano as the #1 Heavyweight of all-times. I once drove Certo home from New York along with Howie Albert and my wife Joyce and we went over that in detail. At the end, Al said, Henry I can't win with you because you really know your stuff. Both Al and Lou were their last Tuesday for the funeral for Howie and also stood along side of all the boxing people while I gave Howie a 20 minute Eulogy, which I never use any notes, it just comes off the top of my head.

I have done approx. 200 Eulogy's for boxing people over the years and its still the hardest thing I have to do. The Eulogy isn't hard, its ringing the bell that's hard. I ring it 9 times, because part of them will live on.
Keep me in touch for your events, I'll be able to make it to at least 1 I'm sure. Speaking of keeping in touch, have you cleaned out your mail box? You need to delete the inbox and the sent messages box. You're only allowed to keep a total of 5 messages combined in the two boxes.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:14 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Keep me in touch for your events, I'll be able to make it to at least 1 I'm sure. Speaking of keeping in touch, have you cleaned out your mail box? You need to delete the inbox and the sent messages box. You're only allowed to keep a total of 5 messages combined in the two boxes.
I know, I also have 26,600 inbox E-Mails and over 12,000 in my sent box. I'll have to clean them out on this site.

If you ever want me, just send me an E-Mail at [email protected]

This Saturday, I am Ring Announcing.

Union City Boxing Club gets commitments from stars to attend fundraiser!!!!!!!!!!!

Former Heavyweight contender Gerry Cooney
Former WBA Junior Welterweight Champ Vivian Harris
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and Many top rated professionals will also attend

Invited and possibly attending also are Former Heavyweight contender Chuck Wepner and New York Giants running back Brandon Jacobs a former amateur boxer.

Gerry Cooney will sign autographs and gloves will be raffled off.

Also, the President of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame & Diamond Gloves, Henry Hascup, will be doing the ring announcing. He is one of the top boxing and all sports historians in the world today.

NJ State Championships tournament starting at 6 p.m. at 3901 New York Ave. in Union City NJ
Tickets are $10.00 and $20.00 and are going fast.
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