Breakdown of the Top 20 All Time Great Heavyweights - Boxing Forum - Boxing Discussion Forums

SIGNIN 

 

Register Now

Not a member yet? Join today - its free!
Boxing History Discuss Historical Boxing In This Section.

Reply

Old 01-09-2009, 06:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Breakdown of the Top 20 All Time Great Heavyweights

Top 20 Greatest Heavyweights of ALL Time

In No Definite Order:
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Jack Dempsey
James J. Jeffries
Joe Jeannette
Jack Sharkey
Sam McVea
Max Schmeling

Criteria
Notable Wins:
Any wins over proven quality opposition (currently A or B rated at the time of the fight)
Over the hill 'A' level fighters count as 'B' level
Past their prime 'A / B' level fighters count as 'A- / B-' level
Some fighters may also be considered by minus levels even in their prime
Pre-Prime vs Pre-Prime and Over-the-hill vs Over-the-hill taken into consideration
Notable Losses:
Losses that occurred during the near prime but pre-prime
Losses that occurred during the prime
Losses that occurred during the near prime but post-prime
Questionable Wins / Losses / Draws:
Any disputed victory or defeat regardless of prime status or quality of opposition
Notable NCs:
No-contests become notable for a fighter if he was clearly winning
Quality of opposition is relevant
Quality Points:
B- rated fighters are worth .5 points
B rated fighters are worth 1 point
A- rated fighters are woth 1.5 points
A rated fighters are worth 2 points
Repeat victories over an opponent are worth half the original point value
In the case of a notable NC half the appropriate point value is given
Detraction Points:
Prime losses by decision cost 2 points, pre / post cost 1 point
Prime losses by stoppage cost 4 points, pre / post cost 2 points
Repeat losses cost half the original value

I've taken the time to maticulously put together the notable career resumes of the previously listed ATG fighters. If there's anything I made a mistake on in the lists below or some things I left out in a fighter's resume, please let me know. I define a credible opponent by the accomplishment of beating 2 or more other credible fighters. Losses are not taken into account when assessing if another fighter is credible, unless a win over such a fighter came in a period of which that fighter did nothing but lose. Exceptions can be made for a fighter's credibility (should he not have at least 2 credible wins) if he was a victim of close decision losses or drew with 'A' level opponents. Also, exceptions can also be made that an over the hill former 'A' level fighter merely reduces to A- in the case that he was really 'A+' level to begin with. Also, Light Heavyweight fighters who were able to beat credible Heavyweights are considered credible as well. If you doubt the legitness of any of the names you see on these resumes, I encourage you to challenge me on it. I've most recently added a point system to evaluate these fighters resumes. I'm open to suggestions about my placement of opponents in the A / A- / B / B- departments. Don't think of it like real grades, A- and B- merely mean between A and B and between B and C respectively. For my point evaluations I go strictly by the record, no subjectivity involved.

Joe Louis
Notable Wins:
Charley Massera
Lee Ramage (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Don “Red” Barry
Natie Brown
Roy Lazer
Primo Carnera <Post-Prime>
King Levinsky
Max Baer
Paulino Uzcudun
Charley Retzlaff
Jack Sharkey <Over the hill>
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Max Schmeling <Post-Prime>
John Henry Louis <Past his prime> *Light Heavyweight Champion
“Two Ton” Toney Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paycheck
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Billy Conn (x2) <Both fighters past their prime in 2nd bout> *Light Heavyweight Champion
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Lee Savold <Both fighters over the hill>
Jimmy Bivins <Both fighters over the hill>
Notable Losses:
Max Schmeling I [KO 12] *No excuse, but impressive Louis lasted as long as he did
Questionable Wins:
Arturo Godoy I
Jersey Joe Walcott I

'A' level wins:
M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn I, Walcott (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Carnera, Uzcudun, Lewis, Conn II, Farr
'B' level wins:
Massera, Ramage (x2), Perroni, Barry, Brown, Lazer, Levinsky, Retzlaff, Sharkey, Ettore, Pastor (x2), Mann, Galento, Godoy (x2), Paycheck, Burman, Dorazio, Simon (x2), B. Baer (x2), Nova, Mauriello, Bivins
'B-' level wins:
Musto, Savold

Point Total: 11 + 6.75 + 24.5 + 1 – 4 = 39.25

Muhammad Ali
Notable Wins:
Doug Jones
Henry Cooper (x2)
Sonny Liston (x2) <Both fights past his prime>
Floyd Patterson (x2) <1st fight Past his prime> <2nd fight Over the hill>
George Chuvalo (x2) <2nd fight Over the hill>
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Cleveland Williams <Over the hill>
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley <Over the hill>
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Oscar “Ringo” Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Buster Mathis
Joe Bugner (x2)
Ken Norton (x2)
Joe Frazier (x2)
George Foreman <Undefeated>
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
Notable Losses:
Joe Frazier I *No excuse, Ali had 2 tune up fights against world class fighters
Ken Norton I <Ali post prime> *Norton broke Ali's jaw
Leon Spinks I *Ali was over the hill, but Leon....worst Heavyweight Champion of ALL time
Questionable Wins:
Sonny Liston II
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton (All wins questionable)

'A' level wins:
Norton (x2), Frazier (x2), Foreman
'A-' level wins:
Liston (x2), Patterson I, Terrell, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Bugner (x2), Lyle, Young, Shavers
'B' level wins:
Jones, Cooper (x2), Patterson II, Chuvalo I, London, Mildenberger, Williams, Folley, Bonavena, Mathis
'B-' level wins:
Spinks, Chuvalo II

Point Total: 8 + 15.75 + 10 + .75 – 4 = 30.5

Jack Johnson
Notable Wins:
Frank Childs (x2)
George Gardner
Denver Ed Martin (x2)
Sam McVea (x3) <Undefeated>
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Black Bill (x4)
Jim Jeffords (x2)
Jack Munroe
Morris Harris
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons <Over the hill> *Light Heavyweight
Tommy Burns
Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
James J. Jeffries <Undefeated> <Over the hill>
Frank Moran
Tom Cowler
Jack Thompson
Notable Losses:
Marvin Hart
Jess Willard [KO 26] <Incriminating circumstances>
Questionable Losses:
Marvin Hart

'A' level wins:
McVea (x3), Jeannette (x3), Langford, Burns
'A-' level wins:
Ferguson (x3), Kaufman
'B' level wins:
Frank Childs (x2), George Gardner, Denver Ed Martin (x2), Jack Munroe, Morris Harris, Bob Fitzsimmons, Tony Ross, James J. Jeffries, Frank Moran, Tom Cowler, Jack Thompson
'B-' level wins:
Black Bill (x4), Jim Jeffords (x2)

Point Total: 12 + 4.5 + 12 + 2 – 2 = 28.5
*Note, did not count the Willard loss against him due to taking the fight after being convicted of violating the Mann Act.


Larry Holmes
Notable Wins:
Earnie Shavers (x2)
Ken Norton <Past his prime>
Ossie Ocasio <Undefeated>
Mike Weaver (x2) <Both over-the-hill in 2nd fight>
Leroy Jones <Undefeated>
Trevor Berbick
Leon Spinks
Renaldo Snipes <Undefeated>
Gerry Cooney <Undefeated>
Randall Cobb
Tim Witherspoon <Undefeated>
Marvis Frazier <Undefeated>
James 'Bonecrusher' Smith (x2) <Both over-the-hill in 2nd fight>
David Bey <Undefeated>
Carl 'The Truth' Williams <Undefeated>
Ray Mercer <Undefeated>
Jesse Ferguson
Butterbean
Notable Losses:
Michael Spinks (x2) *Holmes past his prime
Questionable Wins:
Tim Witherspoon
Questionable Losses:
Michael Spinks II

'A' level wins:
Tim Witherspoon, Ray Mercer
'A-' level wins:
Earnie Shavers (x2), Ken Norton, Gerry Cooney
'B' level wins:
Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver I, Leroy Jones, Trevor Berbick, Renaldo Snipes, Randall Cobb, Marvis Frazier, Bonecrusher Smith I, Carl Williams
'B-' level wins:
Leon Spinks, David Bey, Jesse Ferguson, Mike Weaver II, Boncrusher Smith II

Point Total: 4 + 5.25 + 9 + 2 – 1.5 = 18.75

Evander Holyfield
Notable Wins:
Dwight Muhammad Qawi (x2) <1st fight Past his prime> <2nd fight Over the hill>
Ricky Parkey
Ossie Ocasio
Carlos De Leon
Pinklon Thomas
Michael Dokes
Adilson Rodrigues
Alex Stewart (x2) <Undefeated>
James 'Buster' Douglas
George Foreman
Bert Cooper
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe <Undefeated>
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson (x2) <Past his prime>
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz
Hasim Rahman
Fres Oquendo
Notable Losses:
Riddick Bowe (x2) [UD 12] [TKO 8] *Holyfield had Hepatitis in the bout that ended in TKO
Michael Moorer *Holyfield had heart problems
Lennox Lewis *Holyfield past his prime
Questionable Wins:
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Questionable Losses:
Nikolay Valuev

'A' level wins:
Bowe, Mercer, Tyson (x2), Moorer
'A-' level wins:
Qawi I, Foreman, Holmes
'B' level wins:
Qawi II, Ricky Parkey, Ossie Ocasio, Carlos De Leon, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Alex Stewart (x2), James 'Buster' Douglas, John Ruiz, Hasim Rahman
'B-' level wins:
Adilson Rodrigues, Bert Cooper, Fres Oquendo

Point Total: 9 + 4.5 + 10 + 1.5 – 8 = 17

Sonny Liston
Notable Wins:
Johnny Summerlin (x2)
Marty Marshall (x2) [1st fight prime] [2nd fight Marshall given 4 days notice] *Light Heavyweight
Johnny Gray [Pre-Prime]
Billy Hunter
Ben Wise
Bert Whitehurst (x2)
Julio Mederos
Wayne Bethea
Frankie Daniels *Light Heavyweight
Mike DeJohn
Cleveland Williams (x2)
Nino Valdes [Post-Prime]
Willi Besmanoff
Howard King (x2)
Roy Harris
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Albert Westphal
Floyd Patterson (x2)
Gerhard Zech
Amos Johnson
Elmer Rush
Henry Clark
Roger Rischer [Post-Prime]
Amos Lincoln
Billy Joiner
Chuck Wepner
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2) [RTD 7] [KO 1] {Liston Post-Prime}
Questionable Losses:
Muhammad Ali II (One of the all time worst ref jobs)

'A' level wins:
Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Cleveland Williams (x2)
'B' level wins:
Johnny Summerlin (x2), Marty Marshall II, Wayne Bethea, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Henry Clark
'B-' level wins:
Johnny Gray, Marty Marshall III, Billy Hunter, Ben Wise, Bert Whitehurst (x2), Julio Mederos, Frankie Daniels, Mike DeJohn, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King (x2), Albert Westphal, Gerhard Zech, Amos Johnson, Elmer Rush, Roger Rischer, Amos Lincoln, Billy Joiner, Chuck Wepner

Point Total: 7 + 2.25 + 6.5 + 9.25 – 3 = 22


George Foreman
Notable Wins:
Chuck Wepner
Gregorio Peralta (x2) <Post-Prime>
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) <Undefeated> <Over the hill in 2nd fight>
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Scott LeDoux
Dwight Muhammad Qawi <Both fighters over the hill>
Bert Cooper
Gerry Cooney <Both fighters over the hill>
Adilson Rodrigues
Alex Stewart
Pierre Coetzer
Michael Moorer <Undefeated>
Axel Schulz
Lou Savarese <Undefeated>
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8] *Due to exhaustion, not hurt
Jimmy Young *No excuse
Questionable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta I
Alex Stewart
Axel Schulz
Lou Savarese
Questionable Losses:
Shannon Briggs

'A' level wins:
Joe Frazier I, Ken Norton, Michael Moorer
'A-' level wins:
Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier II
'B' level wins:
Gregorio Peralta I, George Chuvalo, Boone Kirkman, Alex Stewart, Axel Schulz, Lou Savarese
'B-' level wins:
Chuck Wepner, Gregorio Peralta II, Scott LeDoux, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Bert Cooper, Gerry Cooney, Adilson Rodrigues, Pierre Coetzer

Point Total: 6 + 2.25 + 6 + 3.75 – 6 = 12


Mike Tyson
Notable Wins:
Jesse Ferguson
Marvis Frazier
Jose Ribalta
Alonzo Ratliff
Trevor Berbick
James 'Bonecrusher' Smith
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker [Undefeated]
Tyrell Biggs [Undefeated]
Larry Holmes [Over the hill]
Tony Tubbs
Michael Spinks [Undefeated] [Post-Prime]
Frank Bruno (x2) [Post-Prime in 2nd bout]
Carl 'The Truth' Williams
Alex Stewart
Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (x2)
Buster Mathis Jr. [Undefeated]
Bruce Seldon
Francois Botha
Lou Savarese
Brian Nielsen
Clifford Etienne
Notable NCs:
Orlin Norris
Andrew Golota
Notable Losses:
James 'Buster' Douglas [TKO 10] [Tyson Post-Prime, distracted, and too heavily favored to win]
Evander Holyfield (x2) [TKO 11] [DQ 3] [Tyson Post-Prime]
Questionable Losses:
Buster Douglas (Long 10 count) [His mother who died the night before arranged this from Heaven]


Lennox Lewis
Notable Wins:
Ossie Ocasio [Post-Prime]
Gary Mason [Undefeated]
Mike Weaver [Post-Prime]
Tyrell Biggs
Levi Billups
Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
Tony Tucker [Post-Prime]
Frank Bruno [Post-Prime]
Lionel Butler
Tommy Morrison [Post-Prime]
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Henry Akinwande [Undefeated]
Andrew Golota
Shannon Briggs
Zeljko Mavrovic [Undefeated]
Evander Holyfield [Over the hill]
Michael Grant [Undefeated]
Francois Botha
David Tua
Hasim Rahman
Mike Tyson [Over the hill]
Vitali Klitschko
Notable Losses:
Oliver McCall [TKO 2]
Hasim Rahman [KO 5] [Lewis Post-Prime]
Questionable Wins:
Ray Mercer
Evander Holyfield II
Questionable Draws:
Evander Holyfield I (Lewis deserved to win)

'A' level wins:
Vitali Klitschko
'A-' level wins:
Ray Mercer, Evander Holyfield
'B' level wins:
Razor Ruddock, Gary Mason, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Oliver McCall, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Michael Grant, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson
'B-' level wins:
Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver, Tyrell Biggs, Levi Billups, Lionel Butler, Henry Akinwande, Zeljko Mavrovic, Francois Botha

Point Total: 2 + 3 + 12 + 4 – 6 = 15


Harry Wills
Notable Wins:
George 'Kid' Cotton (x3)
Sam Langford (x13) [Prime (x5)] [Post-prime (x4)] [Over the hill (x4)]
Willie Meehan
Joe Jeannette (x2) [rematch Jeannette over-the-hill]
Sailor Grande *Light Heavyweight
John Lester Johnson (x3)
Sam McVea (x2) [rematch McVea over-the-hill]
Jeff Clark (x8) [Prime (x3)] [Post-prime (x3)] [Over the hill (x2)]
Bill Tate (x4)
Jack Thompson (x6)
Edward KO Kruvosky
Ole Anderson
Fred Fulton
Battling Jim McCreary
Gunboat Smith <Post-prime>
Kid Norfolk *Light Heavyweight
Tut Jackson
Bartley Madden
Luis Angel Firpo
Charley Weinert
Floyd Johnson
Notable Losses:
Sam McVea (x2) *Both Losses Pre-Prime
Sam Langford (x2) [KO 14] [KO 19] *First KO Pre-Prime
Battling Jim Johnson [TKO 2] *Bout ended due to broken wrist (only count as 2 pt deduction)

'A' level wins:
Sam Langford (x5), Sam McVea III, Fred Fulton
'A-' level wins:
Willie Meehan, Jeff Clark (x3), Sam Langford (x4), Joe Jeannette, Sam McVea IV, Kid Norfolk, Luis Angel Firpo, Charley Weinert
'B' level wins:
George 'Kid' Cotton (x3), Sailor Grande, Jeff Clark (x3), John Lester Johnson (x3), Bill Tate (x4), Jack Thompson (x6), Battling Jim McCreary, Sam Langford (x4), Tut Jackson, Bartley Madden, Floyd Johnson
'B-' level wins:
Jeff Clark (x2), Edward KO Kruvosky, Ole Anderson, Gunboat Smith

Point Total: 10 + 14.25 + 18.5 + 2 – 7.5 = 37.25


Sam Langford
Notable Wins:
Joe Jeannette (x8)
Jim Barry (x7)
Sandy Ferguson
John Wille (x2)
Tony Ross (x2)
Fireman Jim Flynn (x5) [Only counting first 2, last 3 Flynn was over the hill]
Morris Harris (x2)
Al Kubiak (x2)
John Klondike Haines (x2)
Mike Schreck <Past his prime>
Stanley Ketchel *Doesn't count, only on here to show Langford > Any Middleweight
Battling Jim Johnson (x9)
Jeff Clark (x5) *Light Heavyweight
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien *Light Heavyweight
Sam McVea (x6)
Porky Dan Flynn (x2)
John Lester Johnson
Tom McMahon
Harry Wills (x2)
Gunboat Smith
Jack Thompson (x4)
Bill Tate (x4)
Andre Anderson
Kid Norfolk *Light Heavyweight
Tiny Jim Herman
Frank Farmer *Light Heavyweight
George Godfrey (x2)
Lee Anderson (x2)
Bearcat Wright (x3)
Tut Jackson (x2)
Tiger Flowers *Also doesn't count, just further proof Langford > Any Middleweight
Notable Losses:
Jack Blackburn (Avenged) *Non-Heavyweight bout [Pre-Prime]
Dave Holly (Avenged) *Non-Heavyweight bout [Pre-Prime]
Larry Temple (Avenged 3 times) *Non-Heavyweight bouts [Pre-Prime]
Joe Jeannette (x3) [TKO 8] [NWS 10] [PTS 12] {First of two men to KO Langford in his prime}
Jack Johnson
Young Peter Jackson (Avenged 4 times) *Middleweight bouts [2nd man to KO Langford in his prime]
Jim Barry
Sam McVea (x2)
Gunboat Smith
H. Wills(x13) [PTS 10] [NWS 10] [PTS 20] [NWS 10] [NWS 8] [NWS 10] [NWS 12] [KO 6] [TKO 7] [NWS 8] [PTS 15] [PTS 15] [PTS 10]
Jeff Clark (x2) [Over the hill in 2nd bout]
Bill Tate (x4) [1st fight past his prime, rest over the hill]
Fred Fulton (x2) [TKO 7] [PTS 4] {Past his prime in 1st, over the hill in 2nd}

'A' level wins:
Jeannette (x7), McVea (x5), Wills (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Jeannette, McVea, Ferguson, Norfolk, O'Brien
'B' level wins:
Jim Barry (x5), Tony Ross (x2), Fireman Jim Flynn (x2), Morris Harris (x2), Al Kubiak (x2), John Klondike Haines (x2), Mike Schreck, Battling Jim Johnson (x9), Jeff Clark (x5), Porky Dan Flynn (x2), John Lester Johnson, Tom McMahon, Gunboat Smith, Jack Thompson (x4), Bill Tate (x4), Tiny Jim Herman, Frank Farmer, George Godfrey (x2), Lee Anderson (x2), Bearcat Wright (x3)
'B-' level wins:
Jim Barry (x2), John Wille (x2), Andre Anderson, Tut Jackson (x2)

Point Total: 17 + 6 + 36 + 2.75 – 28 = 33.75

*Note, no Middleweight or below losses counted against Langford since no credit was given for Middleweight or below wins.


Jack Dempsey
Notable Wins:
Joe Bonds
Andre Anderson
Bert Kenny *Light Heavyweight
**** Gilbert
Willie Meehan
Bob McAllister *Middleweight, but proven at Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight
Gunboat Smith (x2) [Post-Prime]
Carl Morris (x3)
Homer Smith
Bill Brennan (x2)
Fred Fulton
Billy Miske (x2)
Battling Levinsky *Light Heavyweight
Jess Willard [Post-Prime]
Georges Carpentier *Light Heavyweight
Tommy Gibbons *Light Heavyweight
Luis Angel Firpo
Jack Sharkey
Notable Losses:
Fireman Jim Flynn [KO 1] {Incriminating circumstances}
Willie Meehan (x2)
Gene Tunney (x2) *Dempsey Post-Prime
Questionable Wins:
Luis Angel Firpo (Dempsey knocked out of the ring for over a minute)
Jack Sharkey (Low blow)
Questionable Losses:
Gene Tunney II (Long 10 count)
Questionable Draws:
John Lester Johnson 1916-07-14 [Johnson's favor]
Willie Meehan 1917-08-10 [Dempsey's favor]
Billy Miske 1918-05-03 [Miske's favor]

'A' level wins:
Fred Fulton, Jack Sharkey
'A-' level wins:
Willie Meehan, Billy Miske (x2), Battling Levinsky, Georges Carpentier, Tommy Gibbons, Luis Angel Firpo
'B' level wins:
Jess Willard, Gunboat Smith (x2), Carl Morris (x3), Bill Brennan (x2)
'B-' level wins:
Joe Bonds, Andre Anderson, Bert Kenny, **** Gilbert, Bob McAllister, Homer Smith

Point Total: 4 + 9.75 + 6 + 3 – 4.5 = 18.25

*Note, did not take into account the Fireman Jim Flynn loss since it's widely believed Dempsey threw the fight, with evidence to support the claim.


Rocky Marciano
Notable Wins:
Roland LaStarza (x2) [Undefeated]
Rex Layne
Joe Louis [Over the hill]
Harry 'Kid' Matthews *Light Heavyweight
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2) [Post Prime]
Ezzard Charles (x2) [Post Prime]
Don Cockell
Archie Moore [Post Prime] *Light Heavyweight
Questionable Wins:
Roland LaStarza I
Ted Lowry I

'A' level wins:
None
'A-' level wins:
Ezzard Charles (x2), Jersey Joe Walcott (x2), Roland LaStarza (x2), Rex Layne, Archie Moore
'B' level wins:
Joe Louis, Don Cockell, Harry 'Kid' Matthews
'B-' level wins:
None
Point Total: 0 + 9.75 + 3 + 0 – 0 = 12.75


Joe Frazier
Notable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena (x2)
Eddie Machen [Over the hill]
Doug Jones *Light Heavyweight
George Chuvalo
Buster Mathis [Undefeated]
Manuel Ramos
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2) [Prime in 1st] [Over the hill in 2nd]
Bob Foster *Light Heavyweight [Never proven at HW but prime top 10 ATG LHW]
Muhammad Ali [Undefeated] [Post-Prime]
Ron Stander
Joe Bugner
Notable Losses:
George Foreman (x2) [TKO 2] [TKO 5] *1st loss prime, 2nd loss over the hill
Muhammad Ali (x2) [UD 12] [RTD 14] *post-prime in both defeats
Questionable Wins:
Ringo Bonavena I

'A' level wins:
Ali
'A-' level wins:
Quarry (x2), Ellis I
'B' level wins:
Bonavena, Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Mathis, Ramos, Bugner
'B-' level wins:
Foster, Stander, Ellis II

Point Total: 2 + 3.75 + 7 + 1.25 – 5.5 = 8.5

*Note, counted second loss to Ali as a decision loss, considering it wasn't a KO/TKO, Frazier wanted to continue, and Ali was going to quit himself.
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing

Last edited by Obama; 05-30-2014 at 05:02 PM..
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-09-2009, 06:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Riddick Bowe
Notable Wins:
Pinklon Thomas [Post-Prime]
Bert Cooper
Tyrell Biggs
Tony Tubbs
Bruce Seldon
Pierre Coetzer
Evander Holyfield (x2)
Michael Dokes [Post-Prime]
Jesse Ferguson
Larry Donald [Undefeated]
Herbie Hide [Undefeated]
Jorge Luis Gonzalez [Undefeated]
Andrew Golota (x2) [Undefeated] *Won both by DQ in fights he was losing
Notable NCs:
Buster Mathis Jr. [Undefeated]
Notable Losses:
Evander Holyfield II (Bowe came in fat, but still really didn't lose)
Questionable Wins:
Tony Tubbs
Questionable Losses:
Evander Holyfield II

'A' level wins:
Holyfield (x2)
'A-' level wins:
None
'B' level wins:
Bruce Seldon, Buster Mathis Jr. [Half Credit], Larry Donald, Herbie Hide, Andrew Golota (x2)
'B-' level wins:
Pinklon Thomas, Bert Cooper, Tyrell Biggs, Pierre Coetzer, Michael Dokes, Jesse Ferguson, Jorge Luis Gonzalez

Point Total: 3 + 0 + 5 + 3.5 – 2 = 9.5

James J. Jeffries
Notable Wins:
Hank Griffin
Theodore Van Buskirk
Henry Baker
Joe Goddard [Goddard Post-Prime]
Peter Jackson [2 feet in the grave]
Tom Sharkey (x2) [Undefeated]
Bob Armstrong
Bob Fitzsimmons (x2) *Light Heavyweight [Fitzsimmons Post-Prime]
James J. Corbett (x2) [1st fight Corbett Post-Prime] [rematch Corbett Over the hill]
Joe Kennedy
Gus Ruhlin
Jack Munroe

'A' level wins:
Tom Sharkey (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Bob Fitzsimmons (x2), James J. Corbett I, Gus Ruhlin
'B' level wins:
James J. Corbett II
'B-' level wins:
Hank Griffin, Theodore Van Buskirk, Henry Baker, Joe Goddard, Peter Jackson, Bob Armstrong, Joe Kennedy, Jack Munroe

Point Total: 3 + 5.25 + .5 + 4 – 0 = 12.75


Joe Jeannette
Notable Wins:
Black Bill (x8) [Over the hill in the last 5]
George Cole (x2) *Middleweight but proven at Heavyweight
Jim Jeffords (x3) [Post-prime in last defeat]
Sam Langford (x3)
Sam McVea (x2)
Morris Harris (x4) [Over the hill in last defeat]
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Jim Barry (x2)
Al Kubiak (x3)
Dan (Porky) Flynn (x2) [Post-prime in last defeat]
Jack "Twin' Sullivan
Chuck Carleton (x3) [Post-prime in last two defeats]
Andy Morris (x2)
George Rodel
Battling Jim Johnson (x5)
Bill Tate (x4) [Green to Pre-Prime]
Tony Ross (x2)
Jeff Clark *Light Heavyweight
George 'Kid' Cotton (x2)
John Lester Johnson (x2) [Green to Pre-Prime] *Light Heavyweight
Georges Carpentier *Light Heavyweight
Colin Bell
Larry Williams
Bill Watkins (x2) [Green in first defeat]
Andre Anderson
Kid Norfolk *Light Heavyweight
Tom Cowler
Clay Turner *Light Heavyweight
Bartley Madden
Notable Losses:
Jack Johnson (x3) *Jeannette Pre-Prime
Sam Langford (x7) [PTS 15] [PTS 15] [PTS 12] [NWS 10] [PTS 20] [KO 7] [NWS 12] *Jeannette Pre-Prime in 1st Loss, Post-Prime in last 2 losses
Sam McVea
Sandy Ferguson
Al Kubiak
Jeff Clark
Jack Thompson
Questionable Draws:
Harry Wills 1914-06-09 (Wills' favor)
Sam Langford 1913-10-03 (Jeannette's favor)
Sam Langford 1908-09-01 (Langford's favor)
Jack Johnson 1905-05-09 (Johnson's favor)

'A' level wins:
Langford (x3), McVea (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Sandy Ferguson (x3), Jeff Clark, Georges Carpentier, Kid Norfolk
'B' level wins:
Jim Barry (x2), Black Bill (x3), Morris Harris (x3), Al Kubiak (x3), Jack "Twin' Sullivan, George Rodel, Porky Dan Flynn I, Battling Jim Johnson (x5), Tony Ross (x2), George 'Kid' Cotton (x2), Colin Bell, Bill Watkins II, Tom Cowler, Clay Turner, Bartley Madden
'B-' level wins:
George Cole (x2), Jim Jeffords (x2), Chuck Carleton I, Andy Morris (x2), Porky Dan Flynn II, Bill Tate (x4), John Lester Johnson (x2), Larry Williams, Bill Watkins I, Andre Anderson

Point Total: 7 + 7.5 + 21.5 + 6.25 – 18.5 = 23.75


Jack Sharkey
Notable Wins:
Floyd Johnson
Al Roberts [Post-Prime]
Sully Montgomery
Jack Renault
George Cook
Jim Maloney (x3)
Johnny Risko
Eddie Huffman
Pat McCarthy *Light Heavyweight
Bud Gorman
George Godfrey
Harry Wills [Over the hill]
Mike McTigue *Former Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Delaney *Former Light Heavyweight Champion
Arthur De Kuh
K O Christner
Young Stribling *Natural Light Heavyweight
Tommy Loughran *Former Light Heavyweight Champion
Phil Scott
Primo Carnera
Max Schmeling
Phil Brubaker
Notable Losses:
Bud Gorman *Sharkey pre-prime
Jack Dempsey [KO 7] *Due to low blow preceding the KO punch
Johnny Risko
Max Schmeling
Primo Carnera [KO 6] *Sharkey past his prime
King Levinsky *Sharkey past his prime
Tommy Loughran *Sharkey past his prime
Questionable Wins:
Jack Renault
Max Schmeling II
Questionable Losses:
Jack Dempsey
Johnny Risko II
Max Schmeling I
Tommy Loughran II

*Sharkey fought two Black fighters in George Godfrey and Harry Wills.

'A' level wins:
Primo Carnera, Max Schmeling
'A-' level wins:
Jack Renault, Jim Maloney (x3), Harry Wills, George Godfrey, Jack Delaney, Young Stribling, Tommy Loughran
'B' level wins:
Floyd Johnson, Sully Montgomery, Johnny Risko, Bud Gorman, Mike McTigue, Phil Scott
'B-' level wins:
Al Roberts, George Cook, Eddie Huffman, Pat McCarthy, Arthur De Kuh, K O Christner, Phil Brubaker

Point Total: 4 + 12 + 6 + 3.5 – 13 = 12.5


Sam McVea
Notable Wins:
Fred Russell
Kid Carter *Middleweight, but proven against competing Heavyweights
Denver Ed Martin (x3)
Joe Jeannette
Jim Barry (x3) [1st fight prime] [2nd fight post-prime] [3rd fight over the hill]
Al Kubiak
Jim Stewart
Battling Jim Johnson (x6)
George Rodel [Undefeated] [Pre-Prime]
Bill Lang
Sam Langford (x2)
Colin Bell (x2)
Harry Wills (x2)
Sandy Ferguson [Over the hill]
Jeff Clark (x5) [first three prime] [last two post-prime]
Bob Devere
Notable Losses:
Jack Johnson (x3) [PTS 20] [PTS 20] [KO 20] *McVea Green to Pre-Prime, only count last encounter
Denver Ed Martin *McVea Pre-Prime
Joe Jeannette (x2) [NWS 10] [RTD 49] *Given distance of second fight won't count it as a KO pt wise
Sam Langford (x6) [PTS 20] [PTS 20] [TKO 11] [KO 13] [NWS 10] [NWS 10] *Last loss over-hill
Harry Wills (x2) [PTS 12] [KO 5] *McVea Post-prime in KO defeat
Jack Thompson
Questionable Losses:
Sam Langford 1916-04-07

'A' level wins:
Joe Jeannette, Sam Langford (x2), Harry Wills (x2)
'A-' level wins:
Jeff Clark (x3)
'B' level wins:
Denver Ed Martin (x3), Jim Barry I, Al Kubiak, Battling Jim Johnson (x6), Colin Bell (x2), Jeff Clark (x2)
'B-' level wins:
Kid Carter, George Rodel, Jim Barry II, Jim Stewart, Bill Lang, Sandy Ferguson, Bob Devere

Point Total: 8 + 3 + 10 + 3.25 – 19 = 5.25


Wladimir Klitschko (**new entry**)
Notable Wins:
Axel Schulz
Monte Barrett
Chris Byrd (x2) [rematch Byrd Post-Prime]
Frans Botha
Ray Mercer [Mercer Over the hill]
Jameel McCline
DaVarryl Williamson
Eliseo Castillo
Samuel Peter (x2) [rematch Peter Post-Prime]
Calvin Brock
Ray Austin
Lamon Brewster [Brewster Post-Prime]
Sultan Ibragimov
Tony Thompson (x2) [rematch both Post-Prime]
Ruslan Chagaev [Chagaev Post-Prime]
Eddie Chambers
David Haye
Mariusz Wach [on steroids]
Alexander Povetkin
Notable Losses:
Ross Puritty [Wlad Pre-Prime]
Corrie Sanders
Lamon Brewster

'A' level wins:
None
'A-' level wins:
Chris Byrd I
'B' level wins:
Chris Byrd II, Jameel McCline, Samuel Peter I, Tony Thompson I, Eddie Chambers, David Haye, Alexander Povetkin
'B-' level wins:
Axel Schulz, Monte Barrett, Frans Botha, Ray Mercer, DaVarryl Williamson, Eliseo Castillo, Samuel Peter II, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin, Lamon Brewster II, Sultan Ibragimov, Tony Thompson II, Ruslan Chagaev, Mariusz Wach

Points Total: 0 + 1.5 + 6.5 + 6.25 – 10 = 4.25


Max Schmeling
Notable Wins:
Gipsy Daniels *Light Heavyweight
Joe Sekyra
Johnny Risko
Paulino Uzcudun (x2)
Jack Sharkey
Young Stribling *Light Heavyweight
Mickey Walker *Middleweight, but proven at Heavyweight
Walter Neusel
Steve Hamas
Joe Louis
Ben Foord
Steve Dudas
Notable Losses:
Gipsy Daniels [KO 1] *Schmeling Pre-Prime
Jack Sharkey
Max Baer [TKO 10]
Steve Hamas
Joe Louis [KO 1] *Schmeling Post-Prime
Questionable Wins:
Jack Sharkey I
Questionable Losses:
Jack Sharkey II

'A' level wins:
Jack Sharkey, Joe Louis
'A-' level wins:
Paulino Uzcudun (x2), Young Stribling, Steve Hamas
'B' level wins:
Joe Sekyra, Johnny Risko, Mickey Walker, Walter Neusel, Ben Foord, Steve Dudas
'B-' level wins:
Gipsy Daniels

Point Total: 4 + 5.25 + 5 + .5 – 12 = 3.75
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing

Last edited by Obama; 05-30-2014 at 05:13 PM..
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2009, 06:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Original Order:
  1. Joe Louis
  2. Muhammad Ali
  3. Jack Johnson
  4. Harry Wills
  5. Larry Holmes
  6. George Foreman
  7. Lennox Lewis
  8. Mike Tyson
  9. Evander Holyfield
  10. Sam Langford
  11. Sonny Liston
  12. Rocky Marciano
  13. Joe Frazier
  14. Riddick Bowe
  15. Jack Dempsey
  16. James J. Jeffries
  17. Joe Jeannette
  18. Jack Sharkey
  19. Sam McVea
  20. Max Schmeling

Order By Resume Rating:
Under Construction

Re-Vamped Order:
  1. Joe Louis
  2. Muhammad Ali
  3. Jack Johnson
  4. Larry Holmes
  5. Sonny Liston
  6. Evander Holyfield
  7. George Foreman
  8. Mike Tyson
  9. Lennox Lewis
  10. Harry Wills
  11. Sam Langford
  12. Jack Dempsey
  13. Rocky Marciano
  14. Joe Frazier
  15. James J. Jeffries
  16. Joe Jeannette
  17. Jack Sharkey
  18. Riddick Bowe
  19. Sam McVea
  20. Max Schmeling


21-25:
Peter Jackson
Floyd Patterson
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Jersey Joe Walcott


*Moved Dempsey up because his resume rating was better than everyone save Jeannette that was beneath him, and since I had him rated higher than Jeannette to begin with combined with the fact he's widely considered a top 10 Heavyweight, I moved him to #11.

*Moved Bowe down beneath Jeffries / Jeannette / Sharkey due to lower rating and having a resume of only B and B- level opponents outside of Holyfield. Basically, he was better, but he just never committed to the sport to achieve more greatness.

*Considering moving Langford above Holmes based on his incredible rating but hesitating because I just don't think he could pull off 2 wins out of 4 tries (50 %) against Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Tyson, or Holyfield.
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing

Last edited by Obama; 08-10-2010 at 03:57 PM..
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-09-2009, 06:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
Moderator
 
bill1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: At my house
Posts: 9,662
bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect bill1234 is a hot prospect
That must have taken a long time. Great job.
__________________
MEMBER OF BOXINGFORUM.COM HALL OF FAME-JANUARY, 2008



bill1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2009, 06:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill1234 View Post
That must have taken a long time. Great job.
Yea...just a couple full days (hours wise). Thanks.
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2009, 12:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
Spike Spiegel
 
Sweet Pea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London
Posts: 7,078
Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game
Good job. I can see it must have taken a long time.
__________________

BoxingForum Hall of Fame
Sweet Pea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2009, 12:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRCJJ View Post
Good job. I can see it must have taken a long time.
Top 20 down, I'm be looking to poll people for the top 30 later...need a break now though. You're looking at about 20 pages of writing right there.

I'm not too particular on the top 30, so I'll just throw 5 guaranteed names in for sure, and about 15 for people to vote into the remaining 5 positions. After that, I'll be working on a Middleweight list (historically the next most important division).
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2009, 12:46 PM   #8 (permalink)
Spike Spiegel
 
Sweet Pea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London
Posts: 7,078
Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game Sweet Pea is a student of the game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
Top 20 down, I'm be looking to poll people for the top 30 later...need a break now though. You're looking at about 20 pages of writing right there.

I'm not too particular on the top 30, so I'll just throw 5 guaranteed names in for sure, and about 15 for people to vote into the remaining 5 positions. After that, I'll be working on a Middleweight list (historically the next most important division).
I was going to suggest you do the Middleweight division, but I suggest you do the top 10 for that division. I'm not sure why, I just feel the Heavyweight division has always been the most significant and most history rich division and I think it's a lot better to do a top 20. But Middleweight, top 10 please
__________________

BoxingForum Hall of Fame
Sweet Pea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2009, 09:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
Madatory Challenger
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Reykjavik
Posts: 4,210
Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game Brutus is a student of the game
Jou Louis – 40.25
Muhammad Ali – 30
Jack Johnson – 28.5
Harry Wills – 28.5
Larry Holmes – 19.25
George Foreman – 11.75
Lennox Lewis – 15
Mike Tyson – 17
Evander Holyfield – 17
Sam Langford – 27.75
Jack Dempsey – 15
Sonny Liston – 11.75
Rocky Marciano – 12.25
Joe Frazier – 3.5
James J. Jeffries – 10.5
Joe Jeannette – 15.5
Jack Sharkey – 14
Riddick Bowe – 9.5
Sam McVea – 1
Max Schmeling – 0.75

Thats actually a very good list altho imo Holyfield should be above Tyson(im prob one of the few that thinks Holyfield wouldave beaten Tyson before the prison) basicly cause he beat him twice as a underdog. But yeah again great job man! Thumbs up
__________________
Boxingforum Hall Of Fame - April 08


Brutus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2009, 10:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
The Professor
 
Obama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise Obama shows promise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
Jou Louis 40.25
Muhammad Ali 30
Jack Johnson 28.5
Harry Wills 28.5
Larry Holmes 19.25
George Foreman 11.75
Lennox Lewis 15
Mike Tyson 17
Evander Holyfield 17
Sam Langford 27.75
Jack Dempsey 15
Sonny Liston 11.75
Rocky Marciano 12.25
Joe Frazier 3.5
James J. Jeffries 10.5
Joe Jeannette 15.5
Jack Sharkey 14
Riddick Bowe 9.5
Sam McVea 1
Max Schmeling 0.75

Thats actually a very good list altho imo Holyfield should be above Tyson(im prob one of the few that thinks Holyfield wouldave beaten Tyson before the prison) basicly cause he beat him twice as a underdog. But yeah again great job man! Thumbs up
Thanks, it's really a toss up for me between Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis. I do think prime vs prime Holyfield could still beat Tyson, but I also think prime Holyfield still loses to a prime Lewis, while prime Tyson knocks prime Lewis out. So they are all pretty much equal to me.
__________________
Follow me on twitter for my YouTube uploads and more:

http://twitter.com/sweetboxing
Obama is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums
Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc. Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios