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Old 09-02-2009, 09:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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P4p.

Those of us who love boxing, the real hard core fans, seem to get quite caught up in that magical, almost mythological boxing cliché known as the Pound for Pound. It is a great source of discussion; if you want to break the ice in a boxing chat room, just ask, who is your P4P? If you want to know who your friends really are, send an email asking, who is your P4P? Call up a boxing buddy and ask him or her, same question. Boy!, Pandora's box will come unglued in a hurry, and more than likely, although we are all dealing with the same cast of characters, we will have great difficulty agreeing on who is the top dog, and even more importantly, why.

Well, I am not one to shy away from controversy, (news flash, right?), and this P4P thing just fascinates me; it angers me too, when I hear people name someone other than who I think should be P4P. Goodness, my #1 choice seems to be so obvious, and so deserving, why doesn't everybody see it MY way?

So, in the interest of setting the record straight, I set out to write this P4P piece. But, hold up! I want to do my research; I want to find the guidelines, the criteria for this P4P issue. Surprise, surprise, there is no such thing! Hmmm....Now what do I do? I have heard so many versions of what a P4P is or should be: it's about performance, it's about excitement, it's about competition, and it's about challenge. Who is to say what it's about, really? Well, for the sake of this article, I am. Each person who reads it, will have his or her own opinion, and it is now very apparent to me that the discussion will not be resolved any time soon. But, won't it be fun trying?

I think it is safe to say that the top three names that come to mind when true boxing fans get together and concoct their P4P are, in no particular order, Mosley, Trinidad, and Jones. Anything beyond those three makes the water very muddled. No Mayweather, Judah or Hopkins in the top three for me. Not even Oscar ranks up there in my book, so after much soul searching, I feel good about these three men: Shane Mosley, Félix Trinidad and Roy Jones, Jr.

His Sweetness, "Sugar" Shane Mosley, is without a doubt one of the most exciting and talented guys in the game; he brings many positives to the sport: speed, classy style, power, heart. Who could ask for more than that? Were this a popularity contest, Shane might take all the marbles, hands down. He has a most engaging smile, great personality, eyes to die for, the body of a God, but wait, wait...I am getting side tracked, aren't I? How do we decide whether this man is our P4P #1? I say, let's look at his record, let's check out the level of his competition.

Shane Mosley made his pro debut in February of 1993, at age 22. Became a champ at age 26, when he defeated Philip Holiday for the IBF Lightweight title. He defended this belt 8 times, and has only had two non-title fights since being crowned in 1997. In June of 2000, he moved up, challenged and unquestionably defeated a not so golden Oscar de la Hoya, and he has successfully defended that title, issued by the WBC, three times, winning all three fights via KO. The last three opponents he faced had a combined loss record of five fights, and Shane has not fought another champion since his dismantling of Oscar de la Hoya. Shane fought twenty three times before becoming a champion, for a total of ninety two rounds.

On with the show. Let's now look at the man who at one time, owned this P4P title, no questions asked. Roy Jones, Jr., with a record of 45-1-0, 36 KO's, 32 years old, 5'11" with a 74" reach. Made his debut at age 20, and fought for his first belt, a vacant IBF Middleweight title, in May of 1993, four years after having made his first pro appearance. He claimed the leather by beating one Bernard Hopkins, who was 22-1-0 at the time. Roy fought three non title fights after having been crowned, and went on to defend the Middleweight title four times.

In November of 1994, Roy became the IBF Super Middleweight champion by defeating James "Lights Out" Toney, in what many believe to have been the cusp of Jones' career. He looked strong, and very mean, beating a champion who was 44-0-2 at the time, and full of venom. Jones then defended this title five times with one non-title defense in between those fights.

In November of 1996, he took possession of the WBC Light Heavyweight belt by beating Mike McCallum, (49-3-1) in a unanimous decision. He went on to defend this belt nine times, with one non-title fight in April of 1998. Along the way, he also became the holder of the WBC, IBF, IBO, WBF, IBA and NBA titles.

Last, but certainly not least, we have Félix Trinidad. Born in January of 1973, 5'11", 72" reach, with a record of 40-0, 33 KO's. Tito made his debut in March of 1990, and had his first title bout only three years later, June 1993, after having fought nineteen times, for a total of thirty eight rounds. Tito was twenty years old when he became the IBF Welterweight champion, having defeated then champion Maurice Blocker in two rounds. He had one non-title fight in 1997, while defending his belt successfully fifteen times. Enter Oscar de la Hoya, from whom Félix acquired the WBC belt as well. He then fought for and won the WBA Light Middleweight title, defended it twice and moved on to challenge WBA Middleweight champ William Joppy whom he starched in May of 2001.

In as much as I have the utmost respect for Mosley and his ability, I think he just became the second runner up, by virtue of sheer numbers. It's between the last two, isn't it? Let's re-examine the data, see what we can come up with.

Tito became champ at an earlier age than Roy, took less time to fight for his first title, too; and while Roy dueled for a vacant, Félix challenged a seasoned champion in Maurice Blocker. Out of forty fights Tito has to his credit, twenty have been title fights; out of those, only two have gone the distance. Since becoming a champion he has only had one non-title fight.

Jones has had five non-title fights to his credit. Seventeen title defenses, with six of those going the full monte. Roy made his debut at age 20; at age 20 Félix was already a champion. Since setting the record straight with Montell Griffin in August of 1997, Roy's opponents show a combined 16 losses to their records. Since same time period, Trinidad's opposition combined for eleven losses, and five of those he fought in that time frame were champions.

On numbers, Félix Trinidad takes the edge. But, let's not be so cut and dry, let's go to the visual. The flair, the flash, the ring generalship, the power, the HEART. Roy Jones Jr. is without a doubt one of the most talented fighters that ever walked this planet. But, is that enough? Is that the measuring stick for a P4P? I dare say not. Jones hasn't KO'd an opponent, weak as some of them have been, since he did away with Virgil Hill in a non-title fight in 1998. There have been TKO's, yes, but no KO's.

Trinidad's demolition of William Joppy, Fernando Vargas and Mamadou Thiam, although TKO's, were merciful stops, either one of these guys would have ended up getting hurt had the bouts not been called. Hard to compare that to, for instance, the stoppage of Jones vs. Eric Harding. There is something about a puncher, a KO artist, it's like watching a home run hitter, who may strike out three times but will win the game with a grand slam in the ninth inning, bringing excitement and a sense of pride to his team and its fans.

There is something to be said about a guy who moves up in weight, and challenges champions. A guy who has had one sole non-title fight since becoming champion eight years ago. There is no question, in my mind at least, that the quality of his opposition is far greater than that of Jones. Ultimately, after all the dissecting is done and over with, we must really search our souls and accept the facts, the truth. To me, the determining factor comes down to HEART, and I don't know of anyone in the business who can outpoint Félix Trinidad in that department.

Roy Jones, Jr. has all the talent in the world, but somehow he has lost his edge, his heart is not in this game anymore. He is a champion who doesn't want to take on dangerous challengers. If Félix Trinidad had decided that he could only fight in Puerto Rico, more than likely he wouldn't be the champion that he is today. Félix has traveled extensively to challenge, to defend, to do whatever has been necessary to become and stay a champion. Roy has opted to take the high road to nowhere.

Some will argue that he has his reasons, and maybe he does, but are those reasons Trinidad's fault? Should they get in the way of establishing who the better man is? I say no, they are not. Therefore, and after careful and unbiased consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the #1 spot in my P4P list will be reserved for a humble young man from Cupey Alto, Puerto Rico, named Félix "Tito" Trinidad.

some stuff this guy said about mosley was kinda gay.But i decided to post this up to see what you guys think.

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Old 09-02-2009, 11:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by blaze3050 View Post
Those of us who love boxing, the real hard core fans, seem to get quite caught up in that magical, almost mythological boxing cliché known as the Pound for Pound. It is a great source of discussion; if you want to break the ice in a boxing chat room, just ask, who is your P4P? If you want to know who your friends really are, send an email asking, who is your P4P? Call up a boxing buddy and ask him or her, same question. Boy!, Pandora's box will come unglued in a hurry, and more than likely, although we are all dealing with the same cast of characters, we will have great difficulty agreeing on who is the top dog, and even more importantly, why.

Well, I am not one to shy away from controversy, (news flash, right?), and this P4P thing just fascinates me; it angers me too, when I hear people name someone other than who I think should be P4P. Goodness, my #1 choice seems to be so obvious, and so deserving, why doesn't everybody see it MY way?

So, in the interest of setting the record straight, I set out to write this P4P piece. But, hold up! I want to do my research; I want to find the guidelines, the criteria for this P4P issue. Surprise, surprise, there is no such thing! Hmmm....Now what do I do? I have heard so many versions of what a P4P is or should be: it's about performance, it's about excitement, it's about competition, and it's about challenge. Who is to say what it's about, really? Well, for the sake of this article, I am. Each person who reads it, will have his or her own opinion, and it is now very apparent to me that the discussion will not be resolved any time soon. But, won't it be fun trying?

I think it is safe to say that the top three names that come to mind when true boxing fans get together and concoct their P4P are, in no particular order, Mosley, Trinidad, and Jones. Anything beyond those three makes the water very muddled. No Mayweather, Judah or Hopkins in the top three for me. Not even Oscar ranks up there in my book, so after much soul searching, I feel good about these three men: Shane Mosley, Félix Trinidad and Roy Jones, Jr.

His Sweetness, "Sugar" Shane Mosley, is without a doubt one of the most exciting and talented guys in the game; he brings many positives to the sport: speed, classy style, power, heart. Who could ask for more than that? Were this a popularity contest, Shane might take all the marbles, hands down. He has a most engaging smile, great personality, eyes to die for, the body of a God, but wait, wait...I am getting side tracked, aren't I? How do we decide whether this man is our P4P #1? I say, let's look at his record, let's check out the level of his competition.

Shane Mosley made his pro debut in February of 1993, at age 22. Became a champ at age 26, when he defeated Philip Holiday for the IBF Lightweight title. He defended this belt 8 times, and has only had two non-title fights since being crowned in 1997. In June of 2000, he moved up, challenged and unquestionably defeated a not so golden Oscar de la Hoya, and he has successfully defended that title, issued by the WBC, three times, winning all three fights via KO. The last three opponents he faced had a combined loss record of five fights, and Shane has not fought another champion since his dismantling of Oscar de la Hoya. Shane fought twenty three times before becoming a champion, for a total of ninety two rounds.

On with the show. Let's now look at the man who at one time, owned this P4P title, no questions asked. Roy Jones, Jr., with a record of 45-1-0, 36 KO's, 32 years old, 5'11" with a 74" reach. Made his debut at age 20, and fought for his first belt, a vacant IBF Middleweight title, in May of 1993, four years after having made his first pro appearance. He claimed the leather by beating one Bernard Hopkins, who was 22-1-0 at the time. Roy fought three non title fights after having been crowned, and went on to defend the Middleweight title four times.

In November of 1994, Roy became the IBF Super Middleweight champion by defeating James "Lights Out" Toney, in what many believe to have been the cusp of Jones' career. He looked strong, and very mean, beating a champion who was 44-0-2 at the time, and full of venom. Jones then defended this title five times with one non-title defense in between those fights.

In November of 1996, he took possession of the WBC Light Heavyweight belt by beating Mike McCallum, (49-3-1) in a unanimous decision. He went on to defend this belt nine times, with one non-title fight in April of 1998. Along the way, he also became the holder of the WBC, IBF, IBO, WBF, IBA and NBA titles.

Last, but certainly not least, we have Félix Trinidad. Born in January of 1973, 5'11", 72" reach, with a record of 40-0, 33 KO's. Tito made his debut in March of 1990, and had his first title bout only three years later, June 1993, after having fought nineteen times, for a total of thirty eight rounds. Tito was twenty years old when he became the IBF Welterweight champion, having defeated then champion Maurice Blocker in two rounds. He had one non-title fight in 1997, while defending his belt successfully fifteen times. Enter Oscar de la Hoya, from whom Félix acquired the WBC belt as well. He then fought for and won the WBA Light Middleweight title, defended it twice and moved on to challenge WBA Middleweight champ William Joppy whom he starched in May of 2001.

In as much as I have the utmost respect for Mosley and his ability, I think he just became the second runner up, by virtue of sheer numbers. It's between the last two, isn't it? Let's re-examine the data, see what we can come up with.

Tito became champ at an earlier age than Roy, took less time to fight for his first title, too; and while Roy dueled for a vacant, Félix challenged a seasoned champion in Maurice Blocker. Out of forty fights Tito has to his credit, twenty have been title fights; out of those, only two have gone the distance. Since becoming a champion he has only had one non-title fight.

Jones has had five non-title fights to his credit. Seventeen title defenses, with six of those going the full monte. Roy made his debut at age 20; at age 20 Félix was already a champion. Since setting the record straight with Montell Griffin in August of 1997, Roy's opponents show a combined 16 losses to their records. Since same time period, Trinidad's opposition combined for eleven losses, and five of those he fought in that time frame were champions.

On numbers, Félix Trinidad takes the edge. But, let's not be so cut and dry, let's go to the visual. The flair, the flash, the ring generalship, the power, the HEART. Roy Jones Jr. is without a doubt one of the most talented fighters that ever walked this planet. But, is that enough? Is that the measuring stick for a P4P? I dare say not. Jones hasn't KO'd an opponent, weak as some of them have been, since he did away with Virgil Hill in a non-title fight in 1998. There have been TKO's, yes, but no KO's.

Trinidad's demolition of William Joppy, Fernando Vargas and Mamadou Thiam, although TKO's, were merciful stops, either one of these guys would have ended up getting hurt had the bouts not been called. Hard to compare that to, for instance, the stoppage of Jones vs. Eric Harding. There is something about a puncher, a KO artist, it's like watching a home run hitter, who may strike out three times but will win the game with a grand slam in the ninth inning, bringing excitement and a sense of pride to his team and its fans.

There is something to be said about a guy who moves up in weight, and challenges champions. A guy who has had one sole non-title fight since becoming champion eight years ago. There is no question, in my mind at least, that the quality of his opposition is far greater than that of Jones. Ultimately, after all the dissecting is done and over with, we must really search our souls and accept the facts, the truth. To me, the determining factor comes down to HEART, and I don't know of anyone in the business who can outpoint Félix Trinidad in that department.

Roy Jones, Jr. has all the talent in the world, but somehow he has lost his edge, his heart is not in this game anymore. He is a champion who doesn't want to take on dangerous challengers. If Félix Trinidad had decided that he could only fight in Puerto Rico, more than likely he wouldn't be the champion that he is today. Félix has traveled extensively to challenge, to defend, to do whatever has been necessary to become and stay a champion. Roy has opted to take the high road to nowhere.

Some will argue that he has his reasons, and maybe he does, but are those reasons Trinidad's fault? Should they get in the way of establishing who the better man is? I say no, they are not. Therefore, and after careful and unbiased consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the #1 spot in my P4P list will be reserved for a humble young man from Cupey Alto, Puerto Rico, named Félix "Tito" Trinidad.

some stuff this guy said about mosley was kinda gay.But i decided to post this up to see what you guys think.
This article is pretty old...I mean Tito is the worse of the three now and B-Hop is better than all three at the moment. I would definitely have to disagree with this article...BIG TIME.
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Wow , I like Tito and was rooting my butt off for him to whoop DLH, but there's no way he should be considered amongst the top 3 P4P in front of Hopkins. Not only was Hopkins ranked higher than Tito before his fight with Tito, but he KOd Tito and became the P4P king. If we're talking about P4P of the era I would say (in no particular order): RJ, Hopkins, and Mosley. Pacman and Mayweather have a strong case for Mosley's slot as well. If we're talking decade: Hopkins, Pacman, and Mayweather. There's no way I see Tito in any of those...
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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This article is pretty old...I mean Tito is the worse of the three now and B-Hop is better than all three at the moment. I would definitely have to disagree with this article...BIG TIME.
yeah the article is old but you cant deny that Tito accomplished alot in his days and i wouldnt say he is the worst of the 3 because i only give credit to Hopkins beating Tito i dont give credit to Roy cause he knew the weight was going to be to much for Tito......in a way what Roy did to Tito Mayweather jr. is doing that to Marquez.I agree with the comparison he did about Tito and Roy to its a legit arguement imho.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Wow , I like Tito and was rooting my butt off for him to whoop DLH, but there's no way he should be considered amongst the top 3 P4P in front of Hopkins. Not only was Hopkins ranked higher than Tito before his fight with Tito, but he KOd Tito and became the P4P king. If we're talking about P4P of the era I would say (in no particular order): RJ, Hopkins, and Mosley. Pacman and Mayweather have a strong case for Mosley's slot as well. If we're talking decade: Hopkins, Pacman, and Mayweather. There's no way I see Tito in any of those...
you has got to be shiting me are you serious.......why do people say fighter like Roy and Mayweather jr. deserve to be top 5???? these guys are cherry pickers and always will be cherry pickers.If Tito was a cherry picker would he be in you top 3?????.I agree with what you said about Hopkins but i will never accept to cherry pickers in my top 5 no way in hell.If it was the best P4P fighter out of those fighters and i would have to put them in order i would put it this way #1 Hopkins #2 Trinidad #3 Pacquiao #4 Mosley # 5 Oscar de la hoya #6 Marqueaz. #7 Roy Jones Jr. #8 Floyd Mayweather Jr. The bold i put in that order assuming they were all retired today.and if Pacquiao beats Cotto he will be in the #1 spot.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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The big difference I find in people's opinion, is whather they belive that being a popular boxer helps there case. Obviously popular boxers like Joe Louis should be high on a P4P list anyway (I know he's a heavyweight but he's the name that springs to mind) but I suppose these kind of people would rate the likes of Naseem Hamed higher han most. He really transcened the sport in Britain with most people knowing his name.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Mosley, Trindad and Jones?? What???

Moving this thread to the P4P section.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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yeah the article is old but you cant deny that Tito accomplished alot in his days and i wouldnt say he is the worst of the 3 because i only give credit to Hopkins beating Tito i dont give credit to Roy cause he knew the weight was going to be to much for Tito......in a way what Roy did to Tito Mayweather jr. is doing that to Marquez.I agree with the comparison he did about Tito and Roy to its a legit arguement imho.
Well I disagree with the writer...he's an obvious Tito fan hence the biased nature of the article. RJ has more skill than Tito, more athletic than tito, stronger, faster, more accurate, can take a punch better than Tito. It took him losing serious poundage and losing brain membrane cushion for him to get KO'ed. Before that he was eating and trading punches with a man 30 pounds heavier than him. Tito got KO'ed by B-Hop and hasn't been relevant since. RJ was on the P4P list before, during, and after Tito's short reign...Tito really doesn't have much of an argument...he's not better than RJ and B-Hop...those two are the best fighters of this era believe it or not...
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Well I disagree with the writer...he's an obvious Tito fan hence the biased nature of the article. RJ has more skill than Tito, more athletic than tito, stronger, faster, more accurate, can take a punch better than Tito. It took him losing serious poundage and losing brain membrane cushion for him to get KO'ed. Before that he was eating and trading punches with a man 30 pounds heavier than him. Tito got KO'ed by B-Hop and hasn't been relevant since. RJ was on the P4P list before, during, and after Tito's short reign...Tito really doesn't have much of an argument...he's not better than RJ and B-Hop...those two are the best fighters of this era believe it or not...
RJ resume has good names but almost all of those big names had disadvantages when they fought RJ and you might not accept this cause your a RJ fan plus i didnt say Tito was better then Hopkins,thou he was before he fought Hopkins.RJ didnt get KOed by Ruiz cause Ruiz is garbage why do u think RJ chose to fight Ruiz as a heavy weight instead of somebody else like Lennox Lewis huh?Tito fought the best at their best weight.
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