[Rayman]

Just remembering some of these guys. What are your impressions of them. How would they fair against the current chump Klitscho

1. Mike Weaver...Good all around durable fighter
2. Greg Page...China chin, no punch, could box your socks off
3. Gerry Coetzee..Crushing right hand power
4. Tim Witherspoon....Gave Holmes his biggest scare
5. John Tate...Don't remember that much about him

I think they all beat Klitscho.

 

[calzaghefella]

James Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker were better than that lot.

The latter of the two went the distance with Tyson when Tyson was at his peak and did so despite breaking his hand in the fourth round of their title fight.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

The 1980's saw a crop of very talented heavyweights, but few were disciplined or well managed enough to maintain any kind of consistancy.

Of the fighters who briefly held alphabet titles between 1980-1987, Tim Witherspoon, Mike Weaver and Trevor Berbick are probably the best in my opinion.

Mike Weaver began his career on a bumpy note. He was poorly managed and took fights against prospects on short notice. Upon gaining exoperience, better management, and good fight opportunities, Hercules developed into a force that I believe was the second best fighter in the division from around 1979-1982. His victories over Coetzee, Tate, Tillis, and later wins over Williams, Duplooy and Pritchard made him a worthy mention.

Tim Witherspoon was the only man in the decade to acquire alphabet titles on two separate occasions. He had honorable wins over Tubbs, Page, Snipes, Bruno, Smith and Tillis. Unfortunately, his battles with Don King and poor training habits made him fall short during the most crucial point in his career. He made a galant effort at a comeback in 1987 and again breached the top 10 ratings by 1990, but never fully recovered enough to be a force again.

Trevor Berbick, is a rather underrated fighter in my opinion. After a short amateur career, he managed to make the 1976 olympics. From 1980 to 1986, he chalked up wins over Page, Tate, Bey, Green, and a huge win over Pinklon Thomas for the WBC title, who many felt was the best in the world at the time.

Outside of those three, I can't say much for the rest. Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs, Tony Tucker, Gerrie Coetzee, Pinklon Thomas, and Boncrusher Smith were decent heavyweights, but their resumes consist of little more than maybe 3 quality wins a piece.

Michael Dokes never really scored a genuine win over Mike Weaver as both fights ended in one form of controversy or another.

Tony Tucker is best known for his losing efforts against Tyson and Lewis, but his list of wins over rated opposition is rather slim, and in most of his best performances, looked rather unimpressive.

Tony Tubbs Could never keep his weight down, and outside of a declining Greg Page, defeated very few quality opponents.

Smith and Page were both decent, but lost reguarly on too many occasions during their prime.

John Tate looked promising in the late 1970's, but his prime was short, and never recovered from his devastating loss to Mike Weaver. He would soon turn to a life of crime that led to jail time and an ill faded attempt at a comeback that never really materialized

 

[Rayman]

Good write up. I remember that Weaver/Tate fight in particular. As Tate mauled Weaver in the corner of the last round Weaver threw that herculean uppercut and Tate fell like a fallen tree face first.

 

[Rayman]

WOW I just watched that Holmes Witherspoon round 9 on YouTube, what a great champion Holmes was. Just Awesome the way he fought back!

 

[bill1234]

Great post and welcome Mr. Magoo. I agree with every word you said. Glad to have you here. Weaver could definately hit, he was naturally built very muscular (much like Tyson) and he was a very powerful man. On his good night he would be trouble for almost anyone.

 

[bill1234]

WOW I just watched that Holmes Witherspoon round 9 on YouTube, what a great champion Holmes was. Just Awesome the way he fought back!

That is a great example of why you don't want to get sloppy when you have him hurt or pissed off.

 

[LeedsLad]

This is a nice article about Larry from over here Bill, im sure you'll like it:thumbsup:

COLIN HART hails Larry Holmes | The Sun |HomePage|Sport

 

[bill1234]

This is a nice article about Larry from over here Bill, im sure you'll like it:thumbsup:

COLIN HART hails Larry Holmes | The Sun |HomePage|Sport

That was a nice artical about him, and his great-grandchild was born on Monday.

 

[calzaghefella]

The 1980's saw a crop of very talented heavyweights, but few were disciplined or well managed enough to maintain any kind of consistancy.

Of the fighters who briefly held alphabet titles between 1980-1987, Tim Witherspoon, Mike Weaver and Trevor Berbick are probably the best in my opinion.

Mike Weaver began his career on a bumpy note. He was poorly managed and took fights against prospects on short notice. Upon gaining exoperience, better management, and good fight opportunities, Hercules developed into a force that I believe was the second best fighter in the division from around 1979-1982. His victories over Coetzee, Tate, Tillis, and later wins over Williams, Duplooy and Pritchard made him a worthy mention.

Tim Witherspoon was the only man in the decade to acquire alphabet titles on two separate occasions. He had honorable wins over Tubbs, Page, Snipes, Bruno, Smith and Tillis. Unfortunately, his battles with Don King and poor training habits made him fall short during the most crucial point in his career. He made a galant effort at a comeback in 1987 and again breached the top 10 ratings by 1990, but never fully recovered enough to be a force again.

Trevor Berbick, is a rather underrated fighter in my opinion. After a short amateur career, he managed to make the 1976 olympics. From 1980 to 1986, he chalked up wins over Page, Tate, Bey, Green, and a huge win over Pinklon Thomas for the WBC title, who many felt was the best in the world at the time.

Outside of those three, I can't say much for the rest. Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs, Tony Tucker, Gerrie Coetzee, Pinklon Thomas, and Boncrusher Smith were decent heavyweights, but their resumes consist of little more than maybe 3 quality wins a piece.

Michael Dokes never really scored a genuine win over Mike Weaver as both fights ended in one form of controversy or another.

Tony Tucker is best known for his losing efforts against Tyson and Lewis, but his list of wins over rated opposition is rather slim, and in most of his best performances, looked rather unimpressive.

Tony Tubbs Could never keep his weight down, and outside of a declining Greg Page, defeated very few quality opponents.

Smith and Page were both decent, but lost reguarly on too many occasions during their prime.

John Tate looked promising in the late 1970's, but his prime was short, and never recovered from his devastating loss to Mike Weaver. He would soon turn to a life of crime that led to jail time and an ill faded attempt at a comeback that never really materialized

Bonecrusher Smith Hammered Mike Weaver in 1 round and battered Witherspoon in their rematch fight and he also knocked out Frank Bruno when Bruno was a top contender.

Added to that he did go the distance with Tyson and give Larry Holmes a decent fight and late in his career even decked a young Razor Ruddock…..Oops yea and he beat Mike Weaver again via points at the end of his days.

Sorry but that counts for a lot for me and it is a dam sight more impressive than Trevor chicken legs Berbick. And it counts for a lot more than Mike Weavers crumby career.

Tony Tucker was twice the #1 ranked contender and both times the reigning world heavyweight champion was stripped of their title rather than fight him. Tucker also beat James Buster Douglas and went the distance with Tyson despite having broke his hand in the fourth round of their fight….Tyson never really got to him but outpointed him, not many fighters of that era can say that Tyson didn’t get to them and Tucker could.

Added to this he also beat Oliver Mccall post Tyson….ooops yea he also went 12 rounds with Lennox Lewis….would Mike Weaver or Tony Tubbs or Trevor Berbick have done that?

Nope….Tucker ended a career with 58 wins 48 by K.O and lost just 7 times…


I rest my case.

The only guy in this era out of the fighters mentioned that is in the same category in terms of ability/achievement is Witherspoon.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

Bonecrusher Smith Hammered Mike Weaver in 1 round and battered Witherspoon in their rematch fight and he also knocked out Frank Bruno when Bruno was a top contender.


Added to that he did go the distance with Tyson and give Larry Holmes a decent fight and late in his career even decked a young Razor Ruddock…..Oops yea and he beat Mike Weaver again via points at the end of his days.

Sorry but that counts for a lot for me and it is a dam sight more impressive than Trevor chicken legs Berbick. And it counts for a lot more than Mike Weavers crumby career.

Tony Tucker was twice the #1 ranked contender and both times the reigning world heavyweight champion was stripped of their title rather than fight him. Tucker also beat James Buster Douglas and went the distance with Tyson despite having broke his hand in the fourth round of their fight….Tyson never really got to him but outpointed him, not many fighters of that era can say that Tyson didn’t get to them and Tucker could.

Added to this he also beat Oliver Mccall post Tyson….ooops yea he also went 12 rounds with Lennox Lewis….would Mike Weaver or Tony Tubbs or Trevor Berbick have done that?

Nope….Tucker ended a career with 58 wins 48 by K.O and lost just 7 times…


I rest my case.

The only guy in this era out of the fighters mentioned that is in the same category in terms of ability/achievement is Witherspoon.

I thought someone might chime in on these little details...

The version of Weaver who Smith beat in 1986 was nothing like the one who I described that clearly rated above him. Hercules was well past his prime when James got to him, and his resume is still far better regardless of the actual matchup. Crusher's win over Spoon was the result of a dive, and no, you're not going to find anything about that on boxrec. Additionally, going the distance with a great fighter by means of clinching for 12 rounds is hardly a legacy builder.

I already addressed that Tony Tucker was best known for going the distance in losing efforts, but also mentioned that he had basically beaten no one of substantial quality. In fact, he climbed into the heavyweight picture by winning a decision over James Broad who Witherspoon had recently blasted in a mere two rounds. His victory over Douglas only rose in stock value years later due to what Douglas did to Tyson, but hindsite means little. Douglas was nobody when Tucker fought him, and Buster quit in that fight after basically kicking Tony's ass anyway. Dito Oliver McCall who was an unknown quantity with an average record who only made a name for himself 3 years later with the Lewis win. As for him being a repeat contender years later, I dare you tell me what he did to deserve this rating.

You also accused Trevor Berbick of having chicken legs? I'm not sure what you mean here. The man was Ko'd twice in 61 pro fights, one time coming against a prime Tyson, and the other coming in only his 11th pro bout to an experienced journeyman. He also defeated a much longer list of rated fighters than some of the guys you mentioned.

 

[ironmike19]

WOW I just watched that Holmes Witherspoon round 9 on YouTube, what a great champion Holmes was. Just Awesome the way he fought back!

@ the people back in the 70's who questioned holmes's heart and courage.

an example of holmes tremendous heart is when he fought earnie shavers, getting up from that nuclear bomb right hand, i would've never gotten up from that punch believe that. :laugh:

 

[Chinxkid]

Also the guy to your left. Not a champ, never even fought for the championship, but came one round away from doing so in his elimination bout with Laurent Dauthuille, who went on to fight LaMotta for the title in 1950. Not a famous fighter, but he was ranked in the top ten even though he had a handicapped right arm.

 

[calzaghefella]

I thought someone might chime in on these little details...

The version of Weaver who Smith beat in 1986 was nothing like the one who I described that clearly rated above him. Hercules was well past his prime when James got to him, and his resume is still far better regardless of the actual matchup. Crusher's win over Spoon was the result of a dive, and no, you're not going to find anything about that on boxrec. Additionally, going the distance with a great fighter by means of clinching for 12 rounds is hardly a legacy builder.

I already addressed that Tony Tucker was best known for going the distance in losing efforts, but also mentioned that he had basically beaten no one of substantial quality. In fact, he climbed into the heavyweight picture by winning a decision over James Broad who Witherspoon had recently blasted in a mere two rounds. His victory over Douglas only rose in stock value years later due to what Douglas did to Tyson, but hindsite means little. Douglas was nobody when Tucker fought him, and Buster quit in that fight after basically kicking Tony's ass anyway. Dito Oliver McCall who was an unknown quantity with an average record who only made a name for himself 3 years later with the Lewis win. As for him being a repeat contender years later, I dare you tell me what he did to deserve this rating.

You also accused Trevor Berbick of having chicken legs? I'm not sure what you mean here. The man was Ko'd twice in 61 pro fights, one time coming against a prime Tyson, and the other coming in only his 11th pro bout to an experienced journeyman. He also defeated a much longer list of rated fighters than some of the guys you mentioned.

I thought someone might chime in on these little details...
.

Interesting choice of words.

To be fair I have not ‘chimed in on these little details’ as you dismissively put it.

I stated my opinion and did so in the exact same way that you stated yours.

I guess if you ‘chimed in on these little details’, then I did too

I am glad that you continue to remain of the same opinion/mind irrespective of the fact that I disagree with you, and that you continued to do so in a constructive manner; it shows character in my view. :thumbsup:

However;

The fact is we are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this subject as we cannot find any objective criteria that we can be used to definitively prove either of us right, or wrong for that matter.

We could use statistics or records, but they have their limitations as do the people using them. For instance I note that you like to quote statistics and records, but also note that you equally like to dispense with them or brush them under the carpet when they do not further your arguments

I am sure I would and possibly have done the same. Haha.

I am also sure that we would both pick and choose our facts, statistics, areas of respective records etc, and equally just as sure that a continued debate on this would descend into pointless semantics, requoting of one another etc and nothing would be solved.

We both prefer different fighters from this era, each to his own.

I could have come back with a lot of facts and we could have gone back and forth like idiots, I didn’t see the point on this one….unusual for me haha.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

Interesting choice of words.

To be fair I have not ‘chimed in on these little details’ as you dismissively put it.

I stated my opinion and did so in the exact same way that you stated yours.

I guess if you ‘chimed in on these little details’, then I did too

I am glad that you continue to remain of the same opinion/mind irrespective of the fact that I disagree with you, and that you continued to do so in a constructive manner; it shows character in my view. :thumbsup:

However;

The fact is we are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this subject as we cannot find any objective criteria that we can be used to definitively prove either of us right, or wrong for that matter.

We could use statistics or records, but they have their limitations as do the people using them. For instance I note that you like to quote statistics and records, but also note that you equally like to dispense with them or brush them under the carpet when they do not further your arguments

I am sure I would and possibly have done the same. Haha.

I am also sure that we would both pick and choose our facts, statistics, areas of respective records etc, and equally just as sure that a continued debate on this would descend into pointless semantics, requoting of one another etc and nothing would be solved.

We both prefer different fighters from this era, each to his own.

I could have come back with a lot of facts and we could have gone back and forth like idiots, I didn’t see the point on this one….unusual for me haha.

Fair enough,

To be honest, I'm not really sure who deserves to be rated as the best of the lost generation of alpha champions. Although Witherspoon, Berbick and Weaver stand out a bit more in my mind, I suppose a reasonable argument could be made for some of the others as well. Frankly, I don't think that there were any of them who were substantially better than the other. Their acheivements differed marginally in quality as far as I can see it. I grew up watching fighters of that era, and truthfully was never terribly impressed with any of them except for perhaps Mike Weaver, because he was a tad more entertaining.

 

[calzaghefella]

Fair enough,

To be honest, I'm not really sure who deserves to be rated as the best of the lost generation of alpha champions. Although Witherspoon, Berbick and Weaver stand out a bit more in my mind, I suppose a reasonable argument could be made for some of the others as well. Frankly, I don't think that there were any of them who were substantially better than the other. Their acheivements differed marginally in quality as far as I can see it. I grew up watching fighters of that era, and truthfully was never terribly impressed with any of them except for perhaps Mike Weaver, because he was a tad more entertaining.

We differ a bit but I agree a fair old bit with the your opening statement and in general with what you have said here and you put your points across well so:thumbsup:

This certainly wasn't the best of times for the heavyweights was it? Post the great 70s and the decline of Holmes up until Tyson and better fighters came on the scene, it was a bit poor really. I like you grew up watching these guys as I was unfortunately too young to have watched Holmes in his pomp or the other greats prior (live I mean).

I think the scene has been even worse post Lewis than it was back then though and that is saying something, hopefully that'll change soon; like taxis decent boxers seem to turn up together don't they:dunno:

 

[bill1234]

Wow, good debate.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

hopefully that'll change soon; like taxis decent boxers seem to turn up together don't they:dunno:

I'm not so optimistic to be truthful.

As a boxing fan, I have waited for a revival for over a decade, and don't see one coming any time soon. Corruption along with bad matchmaking, lack of talent and competition with other media outlets has left boxing in shambles. Today, viewers have a much broader spectrum of sports and entertainment to chose from and have opted to go with such. Whenever I am at parties or gatherings, men who were traditionally boxing fans have turned their attention to such factions as MMA or ultimate fighting. The average westerner hasn't even a clue as to who the heavyweight champion of the world is whereas at one point, such a title was known the world over. I suspect that boxing will continue to exist, limping along for the few who occasionally turn an eye towards it, but the glory days are basically gone and not likely to return in my opinion.

 

[calzaghefella]

I'm not so optimistic to be truthful.

As a boxing fan, I have waited for a revival for over a decade, and don't see one coming any time soon. Corruption along with bad matchmaking, lack of talent and competition with other media outlets has left boxing in shambles. Today, viewers have a much broader spectrum of sports and entertainment to chose from and have opted to go with such. Whenever I am at parties or gatherings, men who were traditionally boxing fans have turned their attention to such factions as MMA or ultimate fighting. The average westerner hasn't even a clue as to who the heavyweight champion of the world is whereas at one point, such a title was known the world over. I suspect that boxing will continue to exist, limping along for the few who occasionally turn an eye towards it, but the glory days are basically gone and not likely to return in my opinion.

I have been trying to think that the scene will get better, especially with the heavyweight division and I still think it might, but a lot of what you have said does strike a chord with me that seems depressingly true.

Man, why did you have to go and say this, even if it turns out to be true it will be unpopular and you know that

Does anyone have any tissues I might just start blabbering

Note to self;

Deep breaths and think about the potential of David Haye, KO punches and possible unification bouts; without thinking about his chin.

Watch ESPN footage of classic fights and drink one-to-five cool beer(s).

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I have been trying to think that the scene will get better, especially with the heavyweight division and I still think it might, but a lot of what you have said does strike a chord with me that seems depressingly true.

Man, why did you have to go and say this, even if it turns out to be true it will be unpopular and you know that

Does anyone have any tissues I might just start blabbering

Note to self;

Deep breaths and think about the potential of David Haye, KO punches and possible unification bouts; without thinking about his chin.

Watch ESPN footage of classic fights and drink one-to-five cool beer(s).

It is conceivable that a crop of better talent and thus more intriguing matches may one day resurface. For the dedicated boxing fan, this would be a huge innovation. For the general populus however, I doubt that the game will ever have the kind of magnitude that it once had. In Joe Louis's era for example, everyone, boxing fan or not, knew who he was and at times even tuned into his matches, regardless of personal interest in boxing. Can you honestly imagine that sort of charisma ever returning to the sport, for any fighter?

I never thought that I'd live to see the day when a sport like golf surpassed boxing in popularity, but sadly that day has arrived....