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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I chosen to call this Answering the Rocky Marciano Critics.

Basically here are the excuses the Rocky Marciano critics use to lower his stature in boxing history.

Excuse Number # 1

Marciano fought old fighters.

Excuse Number # 2

Marciano fought against small heavyweights.

Excuse Number # 3

Marciano never fought a hard puncher.

Excuse Number # 4

Marciano was easy to hit.

Excuse Number #5

Marciano's opponents weren't of the quailty of other champions.

In my next post I'm going to begin to deal individually with each of the above excuses used by Marciano's critics to lower his stature in boxing history.

JC
 

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excuse number #6 he wasn't big enough to beat the hw's of the 70's 80's and 90's
 

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tommygunn said:
excuse number #6 he wasn't big enough to beat the hw's of the 70's 80's and 90's
You're a big guy... I guess. Do you think you could have beaten him?

Very few of the BIG GUYS you're talking about could have. There are some from the time frames you mention - especially in the 70s. That isn't any sort of a guarantee they would have, however.
 

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Marciano wasn't the quickest... Marciano wasn't the flashiest... MARCIANO WAS A BRAWLER... but what he had... he did very well with it... and kicked everybody's ASS... HE WAS UNDEFEATED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE... 44 KOS IN 49 FIGHTS... you can't ask for much more than that! SURE... he was a BRAWLER... BUT THE GREATEST BRAWLER IN HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING HISTORY... EVER! No matter what you say about his ability... he got the job done! I mean... look at Earnie Shavers, George Foreman and Ron Lyle... guys like that! They weren't fancy, flashy and over the top footwork and top notch handspeed... they were brawlers... but what they did got the job done... well... very well... and Rocky Marciano did it better than any other Brawler who was a Heavyweight! Marciano will always have his critics... based purely on the fact that he was "JUST A BRAWLER"... well... so what! Sure... he didn't Box like Ali... he wasn't athletic like Ali... he wasn't as quick Ali... but he'd still probably beat Ali! THANKS!!!

Oh yeah... possible excuse number 7 could be

Excuse Number # 7

He was just a Brawler.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
A friend of mine told me that in cruising the Net, and especially the boxing groups and the BBS'S, that he had seen a lot of debate about: Rocky Marciano Vs Muhummed Ali, "who was the hardest puncher?", "Who are the ten best heavyweights?," etc.

Thereafter to these critics of Rocky who seen to look for excuses to take away from his stature in boxing history, he gave his answers to critics and I found his answers to be so sensible and well written that I have chosen to share his answers with you here.

The time I have to be able to spend here is more limited now. I'm too busy. But I'll try to get around to this in my next post.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
JCC said:
Basically here are the excuses the Rocky Marciano critics use to lower his stature in boxing history.

Excuse Number # 1

Marciano fought old fighters.
Let's start with Excuse No. # 1 Marciano Fought Only Old Fighters

All fighters fight older fighters.

Unless boxing starts separating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.

In boxing you fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down.

Marciano had three key fights against past prime fighters which are always brought up by Marciano's critics: Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

Marciano had to fight Louis, for Louis was seeking a title shot just as Marciano was. Marciano didn't want to fight Louis for reasons he so admired Louis.

In the dressing room on the night of the fight just prior to his fight with Louis, Marciano said. "This is the last guy on earth I want to fight."

At the time Louis had made a come back, you see.

Louis was seeking a shot at the title held by Walcott just as Marciano was, and the only thing that was in Marciano's way in getting a title shot was Joe Louis.

So this is why Marciano had to fight Louis, and this is why Marciano's manager Al Weill sucked Louis into taking a fight against Marciano, and at the time Louis was confident he could beat Marciano.

Any way, this was the reason Marciano had to fight Louis.

Now Walcott!

At the time Walcott was the champion so that was an unavoidable fight too.

Even Marciano's critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires.

Well, Walcott wasn't ready to retire, you see.

So Marciano had to fight Walcott and there was no way around that if Marciano wanted a title shot for Walcott was the champion at the time.

Now Archie Moore!

Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight with Marciano.

It was not Marciano who sought a fight with Moore.

Moore wasn't ready to retire. Marciano was forced into the fight with Moore.

Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight before he retired.

Any way, these are the reasons Marciano had to fight Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

TO BE CONTINUED ...
 

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JCC said:
Let's start with Excuse No. # 1 Marciano Fought Only Old Fighters

All fighters fight older fighters.

Unless boxing starts separating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.

In boxing you fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down.

Marciano had three key fights against past prime fighters which are always brought up by Marciano's critics: Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

Marciano had to fight Louis, for Louis was seeking a title shot just as Marciano was. Marciano didn't want to fight Louis for reasons he so admired Louis.

In the dressing room on the night of the fight just prior to his fight with Louis, Marciano said. "This is the last guy on earth I want to fight."

At the time Louis had made a come back, you see.

Louis was seeking a shot at the title held by Walcott just as Marciano was, and the only thing that was in Marciano's way in getting a title shot was Joe Louis.

So this is why Marciano had to fight Louis, and this is why Marciano's manager Al Weill sucked Louis into taking a fight against Marciano, and at the time Louis was confident he could beat Marciano.

Any way, this was the reason Marciano had to fight Louis.

Now Walcott!

At the time Walcott was the champion so that was an unavoidable fight too.

Even Marciano's critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires.

Well, Walcott wasn't ready to retire, you see.

So Marciano had to fight Walcott and there was no way around that if Marciano wanted a title shot for Walcott was the champion at the time.

Now Archie Moore!

Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight with Marciano.

It was not Marciano who sought a fight with Moore.

Moore wasn't ready to retire. Marciano was forced into the fight with Moore.

Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight before he retired.

Any way, these are the reasons Marciano had to fight Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

TO BE CONTINUED ...
I was just reading about why Marciano didn't fight Louis, he knew he had to fight him, but he knew people would be rooting for Louis, even if Louis lost. Marciano was basicaly in the same position Holmes was against Ali, if they didn't fight Holmes would be called a coward, if he lost he would be a sucky fighter, when he won he beat an old man. Both Marciano and Holmes were in the same boat.
 

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RoccoMarciano said:
You're a big guy... I guess. Do you think you could have beaten him?

Very few of the BIG GUYS you're talking about could have. There are some from the time frames you mention - especially in the 70s. That isn't any sort of a guarantee they would have, however.
well im a naturaly confident guy and fighter so hopefully if things go to plan in the next 5 years you can make your own mind up. ;)
 

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JCC said:
Let's start with Excuse No. # 1 Marciano Fought Only Old Fighters

All fighters fight older fighters.

Unless boxing starts separating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.

In boxing you fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down.

Marciano had three key fights against past prime fighters which are always brought up by Marciano's critics: Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

Marciano had to fight Louis, for Louis was seeking a title shot just as Marciano was. Marciano didn't want to fight Louis for reasons he so admired Louis.

In the dressing room on the night of the fight just prior to his fight with Louis, Marciano said. "This is the last guy on earth I want to fight."

At the time Louis had made a come back, you see.

Louis was seeking a shot at the title held by Walcott just as Marciano was, and the only thing that was in Marciano's way in getting a title shot was Joe Louis.

So this is why Marciano had to fight Louis, and this is why Marciano's manager Al Weill sucked Louis into taking a fight against Marciano, and at the time Louis was confident he could beat Marciano.

Any way, this was the reason Marciano had to fight Louis.

Now Walcott!

At the time Walcott was the champion so that was an unavoidable fight too.

Even Marciano's critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires.

Well, Walcott wasn't ready to retire, you see.

So Marciano had to fight Walcott and there was no way around that if Marciano wanted a title shot for Walcott was the champion at the time.

Now Archie Moore!

Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight with Marciano.

It was not Marciano who sought a fight with Moore.

Moore wasn't ready to retire. Marciano was forced into the fight with Moore.

Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight before he retired.

Any way, these are the reasons Marciano had to fight Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore.

TO BE CONTINUED ...

JCC, I could not agree more, VERY GOOD!

I never said Rocky shouldn't have fought any of these guys, because I too think he had too.

Moore demanded to box Rocky, BUT Valdez did to and he never got the shot for some reason or another.

Again, I agree with you on this one!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
bill1234 said:
I was just reading about why Marciano didn't fight Louis, he knew he had to fight him, but he knew people would be rooting for Louis, even if Louis lost.
That's true, and they did do that.

bill1234 said:
Marciano was basicaly in the same position Holmes was against Ali, if they didn't fight Holmes would be called a coward, if he lost he would be a sucky fighter, when he won he beat an old man. Both Marciano and Holmes were in the same boat.
That's an interesting analogy.

JC
 

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I agree with everything JC wrote regarding #1. As far as Walcott being way past it as some say, he wasn't. Walcott actually got better, from what I've read as he got older, and probably fought the best fight of his career in Marciano vs Walcott 1.
 

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walcott had a record of 51-16-2 when he faced marciano in there first bout and some of his loses were against oponents not even rated, as ive been saying marciano fought in probably a weaker hw division than there is now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
JCC said:
Basically here are the excuses the Rocky Marciano critics use to lower his stature in boxing history.

Excuse Number # 1

Marciano fought old fighters.
Let's look closer now at this particular excuse given by Marciano critics for wanting to lower his stature in boxing history.

Ezzard Charles was one of Marciano's opponents, Charles was only two years older than Marciano; that's hardly another age bracket.

Roland LaStarza was also one of Marciano's opponents, LaStarza fought from 1947-1958, and Don Cockell was one of Marciano's opponents, and Cockell fought from 1946-1955, so they were contempories of Marciano.

AGES OF SOME OF THE FAMOUS OPPONENTS OF OTHER GREATS ... taking the title from older men ....

You would think Marciano was the only champion who recieved his title shot against an older opponent to hear some critics howl.

Let's take a look at some boxing history and see if anyone else beat up an old man to become champion other than Marciano ....

Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott when they fought.

But ... Jack Dempsey was 12 years younger that Jess Willard when they fought ... hummm .. imagine that!

James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fritzsimmons when they fought.

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than James Braddock when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 10 years younger than Sonny Liston when they fought.

Larry Holmes was 6 years younger than Ken Norton when they fought.

Leon Spinks was 11 years younger than Muhummed Ali when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC champion) when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 12 years younger than James "Bone crusher" Smith (WBA champion) when they fought.

Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan when they fought.

So the average age difference for these championship fights was 11 years, Marciano, therefore had less of an age factor advantage than Dempsey, Jeffries, Louis, Ali, Spinks, Tyson, and corbett.

Now let's look at some Non-title fights

Remember Rocky Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore when they fought.

But wait .... Muhummed Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Floyd Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmelling when they fought (Max knocked out Joe and was later knocked out by him).

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Copper when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 7 years younger than Floyd Patterson when they fought.

So, if Marciano rose to the top by beating up older men, its apparent that so did Ali, Louis, Tyson, Patterson and Dempsey to name only a few.

JC
 

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tommygunn said:
well im a naturaly confident guy and fighter so hopefully if things go to plan in the next 5 years you can make your own mind up. ;)

LOL, it won't do you any good unless you find a time machine in the next 5 years to go back to 1954.
 

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JCC said:
Let's look closer now at this particular excuse given by Marciano critics for wanting to lower his stature in boxing history.

Ezzard Charles was one of Marciano's opponents, Charles was only two years older than Marciano; that's hardly another age bracket.

Roland LaStarza was also one of Marciano's opponents, LaStarza fought from 1947-1958, and Don Cockell was one of Marciano's opponents, and Cockell fought from 1946-1955, so they were contempories of Marciano.

AGES OF SOME OF THE FAMOUS OPPONENTS OF OTHER GREATS ... taking the title from older men ....

You would think Marciano was the only champion who recieved his title shot against an older opponent to hear some critics howl.

Let's take a look at some boxing history and see if anyone else beat up an old man to become champion other than Marciano ....

Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott when they fought.

But ... Jack Dempsey was 12 years younger that Jess Willard when they fought ... hummm .. imagine that!

James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fritzsimmons when they fought.

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than James Braddock when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 10 years younger than Sonny Liston when they fought.

Larry Holmes was 6 years younger than Ken Norton when they fought.

Leon Spinks was 11 years younger than Muhummed Ali when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC champion) when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 12 years younger than James "Bone crusher" Smith (WBA champion) when they fought.

Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan when they fought.

So the average age difference for these championship fights was 11 years, Marciano, therefore had less of an age factor advantage than Dempsey, Jeffries, Louis, Ali, Spinks, Tyson, and corbett.

Now let's look at some Non-title fights

Remember Rocky Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore when they fought.

But wait .... Muhummed Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Floyd Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmelling when they fought (Max knocked out Joe and was later knocked out by him).

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Copper when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 7 years younger than Floyd Patterson when they fought.

So, if Marciano rose to the top by beating up older men, its apparent that so did Ali, Louis, Tyson, Patterson and Dempsey to name only a few.

JC

Thank you!!! If I were a Marciano critic (which I'm obviously not), that would have shut me down and out for that segment.
 

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JCC said:
Let's look closer now at this particular excuse given by Marciano critics for wanting to lower his stature in boxing history.

Ezzard Charles was one of Marciano's opponents, Charles was only two years older than Marciano; that's hardly another age bracket.

Roland LaStarza was also one of Marciano's opponents, LaStarza fought from 1947-1958, and Don Cockell was one of Marciano's opponents, and Cockell fought from 1946-1955, so they were contempories of Marciano.

AGES OF SOME OF THE FAMOUS OPPONENTS OF OTHER GREATS ... taking the title from older men ....

You would think Marciano was the only champion who recieved his title shot against an older opponent to hear some critics howl.

Let's take a look at some boxing history and see if anyone else beat up an old man to become champion other than Marciano ....

Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott when they fought.

But ... Jack Dempsey was 12 years younger that Jess Willard when they fought ... hummm .. imagine that!

James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fritzsimmons when they fought.

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than James Braddock when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 10 years younger than Sonny Liston when they fought.

Larry Holmes was 6 years younger than Ken Norton when they fought.

Leon Spinks was 11 years younger than Muhummed Ali when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC champion) when they fought.

Mike Tyson was 12 years younger than James "Bone crusher" Smith (WBA champion) when they fought.

Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan when they fought.

So the average age difference for these championship fights was 11 years, Marciano, therefore had less of an age factor advantage than Dempsey, Jeffries, Louis, Ali, Spinks, Tyson, and corbett.

Now let's look at some Non-title fights

Remember Rocky Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore when they fought.

But wait .... Muhummed Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Floyd Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore !!! when they fought.

Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmelling when they fought (Max knocked out Joe and was later knocked out by him).

Joe Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Copper when they fought.

Muhummed Ali was 7 years younger than Floyd Patterson when they fought.

So, if Marciano rose to the top by beating up older men, its apparent that so did Ali, Louis, Tyson, Patterson and Dempsey to name only a few.

JC

I read that too! AND everything it says is TRUE!

BUT, I never said he fought older fighters, what I said is that the boxers he fought were passed there prime, there is a BIG Difference.

Tyson was passed his prime when he was in his early to mid 20's. Others, such as Walcott, Braddock and Moore didn't get to there primes until there mid 30's.

Next time try to do your own research instead of coping from someone else.
 

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hhascup said:
I read that too! AND everything it says is TRUE!

BUT, I never said he fought older fighters, what I said is that the boxers he fought were passed there prime, there is a BIG Difference.

Tyson was passed his prime when he was in his early to mid 20's. Others, such as Walcott, Braddock and Moore didn't get to there primes until there mid 30's.

Next time try to do your own research instead of coping from someone else.
Hey, that is going over the line in my opinion. Don't bash someone for putting up info....Even if they didn't do the research they still found the info to post up.:mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Hey, Bill. I got him! He just didn't like it that's all. Hey, facts or facts no matter who does the research. I got him! :laugh:

JC
 

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JCC said:
Hey, Bill. I got him! And he just didn't like it that's all. Hey, facts or facts no matter who does the research. I got him. LOL

JC
LOL yes you did.:thumbsup: :D
 
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