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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This fight severely annoyed me. I watched the whole fight from start to finish, and I ended the fight with Clottey winning the fight by wide Margins. 118-109/ 10-2. I do not see how you could have scored more than four rounds in favor of Margarito. All Margarito did in that fight was land some body shots in the early rounds and punch Clottey in the gloves. Margarito barely got 5 clean shots to the head per round.
 

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It was just the workrate itself. The fight could've been scored for Clottey by close margins but I dont see it that wide. Zab Judahw wasnt landing head shots either but he managed to win some rounds. Its about activity, and Clottey sometimes lacks

If not by the hands issue I believe Clottey wouldve won.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
its still a robbed fight. The judges are kinda stupid if they were judging on workrate, which is not what wins a fight. A workrate only works if the punch actually connects to the right place. not gloves.
 

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its still a robbed fight. The judges are kinda stupid if they were judging on workrate, which is not what wins a fight. A workrate only works if the punch actually connects to the right place. not gloves.
But thats how it is. Sometimes one fighter scores numerous partially or almost sompletely blocked punches and the other socres cleaner blows, but few. Taht was the case, Margarito was moving forward and unleashing punches nonstop, all time compubox record of punches thrown in a fight.

I dont think it was a robbery, it was a close fight.
 

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The Professor
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I had Clottey winning a close fight, but it's no robbery cuz Margarito shattered compubox records with his workrate.

There however should have been a rematch, and Margarito has opted out of one TWICE. First time was when Margarito won the IBF title from Cintron, Clottey was immediately the mandatory, but Clottey had already been the mandatory for the title before Cintron vs Margarito even happened. Clottey agreed to let the Cintron vs Margarito fight happen provided he got a guarantee to have a bout for the IBF title next, preventing Margarito from having a unification bout with Cotto should he have won the fight. So essentially Margarito won the belt just to vacate it in order to hype the Cotto fight. Clottey gets the vacant title from fighting Judah, and now Cintron has an eliminator coming up to get another shot at the IBF title. Meanwhile, Margarito wanted to fight Oscar this year but Oscar opted out to make more money with Pacman. The next biggest money offer on the table for Margarito this year would have been a rematch with Williams, he didn't want the fight. The next biggest money offer after that would be a rematch with Clottey, a fight they actually had in the making. But then Margarito pulled out, and now he doesn't even have a fight for the rest of 2008. Cotto is fighting in a WBO eliminator in his return bout (William's belt's organization), and Margarito seems to be up a creek without a clue or a paddle. My guess is he guns for 37 years old former Lightweight Sugar Shane Mosley. He won't really prove to me he's the best Welterweight in the world until he beats Williams or definitively beats Clottey.
 

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Margarito edged it IMO, but Clottey showed me enough to think that he could clearly win a rematch between the two. Both at 100% Clottey takes a close decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I had Clottey winning a close fight, but it's no robbery cuz Margarito shattered compubox records with his workrate.

There however should have been a rematch, and Margarito has opted out of one TWICE. First time was when Margarito won the IBF title from Cintron, Clottey was immediately the mandatory, but Clottey had already been the mandatory for the title before Cintron vs Margarito even happened. Clottey agreed to let the Cintron vs Margarito fight happen provided he got a guarantee to have a bout for the IBF title next, preventing Margarito from having a unification bout with Cotto should he have won the fight. So essentially Margarito won the belt just to vacate it in order to hype the Cotto fight. Clottey gets the vacant title from fighting Judah, and now Cintron has an eliminator coming up to get another shot at the IBF title. Meanwhile, Margarito wanted to fight Oscar this year but Oscar opted out to make more money with Pacman. The next biggest money offer on the table for Margarito this year would have been a rematch with Williams, he didn't want the fight. The next biggest money offer after that would be a rematch with Clottey, a fight they actually had in the making. But then Margarito pulled out, and now he doesn't even have a fight for the rest of 2008. Cotto is fighting in a WBO eliminator in his return bout (William's belt's organization), and Margarito seems to be up a creek without a clue or a paddle. My guess is he guns for 37 years old former Lightweight Sugar Shane Mosley. He won't really prove to me he's the best Welterweight in the world until he beats Williams or definitively beats Clottey.
There is no way that Clottey was not robbed. Once again, the workrate does not mean anything if they do not connect. Clottey hit Margarito with more clean shots and better clean shots throughout the fight, and that is how winning is done. I suppose if all Margarito did in the fight was use his workrate to throw numerous punches -all innefective (like it was in the actual match)- to Clotteys shoulder, while Clottey went on like normal to land 10 great punches to his head, and Margarito would still deserve the win? That is some serious fixed fight my friend, just like the real match.
 

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There is no way that Clottey was not robbed. Once again, the workrate does not mean anything if they do not connect. Clottey hit Margarito with more clean shots and better clean shots throughout the fight, and that is how winning is done. I suppose if all Margarito did in the fight was use his workrate to throw numerous punches -all innefective (like it was in the actual match)- to Clotteys shoulder, while Clottey went on like normal to land 10 great punches to his head, and Margarito would still deserve the win? That is some serious fixed fight my friend, just like the real match.
It was far from a robbery man. Seriously. I assume you're a Clottey fan just like I am. And just like me, I suppose you score fights with bigger emphasis on clean punching and ring generalship. But sometimes theres a limit, one or two clean punches x 100 plus partially or blocked punches is something to think about.
However, sometimes, when one fighter is doing most of the work, he gets the round. Clottey wasnt doing so much to make those rounds undoubtely his.

Most observers, ringsiders, writers didnt see that fight as a robbery at all, but rather as a proof that Clottey could've won the fight if he was 100% and a tad more active.
 

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The Professor
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Partial lands count BoxingManiac, Margarito left the fight landed more punches...

A clean hard shot doesn't count for like 5x a partial blow does, if it did Clottey would have been robbed, but it doesn't so he wasn't.
 

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I had Clottey winning a close fight, but it's no robbery cuz Margarito shattered compubox records with his workrate.

There however should have been a rematch, and Margarito has opted out of one TWICE. First time was when Margarito won the IBF title from Cintron, Clottey was immediately the mandatory, but Clottey had already been the mandatory for the title before Cintron vs Margarito even happened. Clottey agreed to let the Cintron vs Margarito fight happen provided he got a guarantee to have a bout for the IBF title next, preventing Margarito from having a unification bout with Cotto should he have won the fight. So essentially Margarito won the belt just to vacate it in order to hype the Cotto fight. Clottey gets the vacant title from fighting Judah, and now Cintron has an eliminator coming up to get another shot at the IBF title. Meanwhile, Margarito wanted to fight Oscar this year but Oscar opted out to make more money with Pacman. The next biggest money offer on the table for Margarito this year would have been a rematch with Williams, he didn't want the fight. The next biggest money offer after that would be a rematch with Clottey, a fight they actually had in the making. But then Margarito pulled out, and now he doesn't even have a fight for the rest of 2008. Cotto is fighting in a WBO eliminator in his return bout (William's belt's organization), and Margarito seems to be up a creek without a clue or a paddle. My guess is he guns for 37 years old former Lightweight Sugar Shane Mosley. He won't really prove to me he's the best Welterweight in the world until he beats Williams or definitively beats Clottey.
After the Paul Williams semi-blunder from Margarito and his camp. Arum and Top Rank has had a bigger say in Antonio's career, he never intended to rematch Clottey (the first time) and you know this. That's why Cotto was headlining that card. After Margarito-Cotto, the fight with Clottey was being seriously talked about for November 1st, but Margarito and his camp didn't want to get in the ring so soon, the earliest they wanted was a date in December. There wasn't one available, so it wasn't done, and I don't blame Margarito for enjoying the biggest victory in his career.
There is no way that Clottey was not robbed. Once again, the workrate does not mean anything if they do not connect. Clottey hit Margarito with more clean shots and better clean shots throughout the fight, and that is how winning is done. I suppose if all Margarito did in the fight was use his workrate to throw numerous punches -all innefective (like it was in the actual match)- to Clotteys shoulder, while Clottey went on like normal to land 10 great punches to his head, and Margarito would still deserve the win? That is some serious fixed fight my friend, just like the real match.
Are you taking into account ring generalship and effective aggressiveness? Because after round 4 they trump anything Clottey did. The biggest Clottey fans on the forum (not myself) are telling you that it wasn't a robbery, but a close fight where you could, at best, narrowly score it for Clottey. I suggest you re-watch and re-score the fight, taking all the judges criteria into account.
 

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The Professor
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I just re-watched and re-scored this fight. I had Clottey winning rounds 1-4, 8, 10, and 12 with the 11 round even. So that's 7-4 with 1 even in favor of Clottey. 7-5 would have been reasonable, a draw would not have been terrible, but a scoring it for Margarito is pretty poor, it shows no love for landing clean punches, something Margarito rarely ever did. I think one judge even had it 118-109 for Margarito. The guy needs some glasses, seriously.
 
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Compubox, judges and the vast majority of boxing fans and experts had Margarito landing and winning the fight. I was pulling for Clottey and will be if there is a rematch but he didn't win the fight. I also think he will win if he stays injury free, although to be fair Margarito was injured too to a lesser extent.
 

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The Professor
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Compubox, judges and the vast majority of boxing fans and experts had Margarito landing and winning the fight. I was pulling for Clottey and will be if there is a rematch but he didn't win the fight. I also think he will win if he stays injury free, although to be fair Margarito was injured too to a lesser extent.
The injury was weeks before the fight, and it completely healed. He was contemplating canceling until it healed.

Margarito still didn't win this fight, he hit gloves the whole night. WHen the hell does showtime even get compubox, I don't trust the numbers at all. Clottey landed the more meaningful shots the entire fight. Hell just watch the rounds I scored it for him, it's not hard to tell. When a fight is watched the first time people are always more inclined to give it to the more active fighter, even if he's accomplishing next to nothing. He had Clottey in a bad situation only once in the fight, I think it was the 9th round. And Clottey turned into Pernell Whitaker as he wiggled on and off the ropes beautifully avoiding Margarito's power shots. Then in the 10th round Clottey pulls a Mayweather and just dances on his ass while pot shotting him, during which time Margarito effectively is able to do absolutely nothing.

The scores two of the judges had after the 12 rounds were complete was 116-112, an entire load of crap. That would mean Clottey did not win ONE single round after the 4th. The fight might not have been a robbery but the scorecards damn sure were, and the guy who had it 118-109 needs to be fired.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The injury was weeks before the fight, and it completely healed. He was contemplating canceling until it healed.

Margarito still didn't win this fight, he hit gloves the whole night. WHen the hell does showtime even get compubox, I don't trust the numbers at all. Clottey landed the more meaningful shots the entire fight. Hell just watch the rounds I scored it for him, it's not hard to tell. When a fight is watched the first time people are always more inclined to give it to the more active fighter, even if he's accomplishing next to nothing. He had Clottey in a bad situation only once in the fight, I think it was the 9th round. And Clottey turned into Pernell Whitaker as he wiggled on and off the ropes beautifully avoiding Margarito's power shots. Then in the 10th round Clottey pulls a Mayweather and just dances on his ass while pot shotting him, during which time Margarito effectively is able to do absolutely nothing.

The scores two of the judges had after the 12 rounds were complete was 116-112, an entire load of crap. That would mean Clottey did not win ONE single round after the 4th. The fight might not have been a robbery but the scorecards damn sure were, and the guy who had it 118-109 needs to be fired.
SEE!!! THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING! If the punches don't do any damage, they are basically useless. If the scorecards are robbed, so is the fight. Clottey one that one, no doubt. It may not be as wide of margins as I thought is was, but Clottey still won.

P.S. Before seeing the fight between Margarito and Clottey, I had never seen either fighter fight before. So I was really rooting for Margarito, and after a couple rounds, I said "this guy ain't nearly good enough to beat Mayweather." If he can't make his way around Clottey's defense, how the fukk is he gonna get past Mayweathers?
 

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The Professor
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SEE!!! THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING! If the punches don't do any damage, they are basically useless. If the scorecards are robbed, so is the fight. Clottey one that one, no doubt. It may not be as wide of margins as I thought is was, but Clottey still won.

P.S. Before seeing the fight between Margarito and Clottey, I had never seen either fighter fight before. So I was really rooting for Margarito, and after a couple rounds, I said "this guy ain't nearly good enough to beat Mayweather." If he can't make his way around Clottey's defense, how the fukk is he gonna get past Mayweathers?
Well, Clottey's defense is one where he has no problem taking the full impact of punches. He's large/strong enough to straight up block Margarito's power shots. Mayweather is a much smaller Welterweight who's defense would have to avoid the majority of Margarito's shots altogether. Don't get me wrong, Mayweather still clowns Margarito, but he can't do what Clottey does and survive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
probably not. It wasn't the general taking the punches, but the fact that Margarito has to find ways around defenses, and he showed no effort to do that in the fight with Clottey. Margarito has no stratagy, and he needs that if he wants to beat Mayweather.
 
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The injury was weeks before the fight, and it completely healed. He was contemplating canceling until it healed.

Margarito still didn't win this fight, he hit gloves the whole night. WHen the hell does showtime even get compubox, I don't trust the numbers at all. Clottey landed the more meaningful shots the entire fight. Hell just watch the rounds I scored it for him, it's not hard to tell. When a fight is watched the first time people are always more inclined to give it to the more active fighter, even if he's accomplishing next to nothing. He had Clottey in a bad situation only once in the fight, I think it was the 9th round. And Clottey turned into Pernell Whitaker as he wiggled on and off the ropes beautifully avoiding Margarito's power shots. Then in the 10th round Clottey pulls a Mayweather and just dances on his ass while pot shotting him, during which time Margarito effectively is able to do absolutely nothing.

The scores two of the judges had after the 12 rounds were complete was 116-112, an entire load of crap. That would mean Clottey did not win ONE single round after the 4th. The fight might not have been a robbery but the scorecards damn sure were, and the guy who had it 118-109 needs to be fired.
Alright smartass punch stats, not compubox. Punch stats do mean something, but they're not definitive. I know you're a big Clottey fan so I'm not surprised you have a slanted view on this. First of all Margarito's injury did not heal, he went ahead with the fight because he obviously thought that it wouldn't be much of a problem. But like I said it was much lesser that Clottey's so I'm not using that as an excuse for him. I've watched the fight a few times and never scored it to Clottey. It was pretty close but Clottey got outworked and outlanded in the second half of the fight. If he didn't injure his hand he most likely would have won. You gave it to Clottey wide if I remember right. Do you have a scorecard?
 

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The Professor
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Alright smartass punch stats, not compubox. Punch stats do mean something, but they're not definitive. I know you're a big Clottey fan so I'm not surprised you have a slanted view on this. First of all Margarito's injury did not heal, he went ahead with the fight because he obviously thought that it wouldn't be much of a problem. But like I said it was much lesser that Clottey's so I'm not using that as an excuse for him. I've watched the fight a few times and never scored it to Clottey. It was pretty close but Clottey got outworked and outlanded in the second half of the fight. If he didn't injure his hand he most likely would have won. You gave it to Clottey wide if I remember right. Do you have a scorecard?
I don't judge fights with bias, I could hate Clottey and have scored the fight the same way. If I was partial I would have gave Hopkins vs Calzaghe to Hopkins, I did not. Now if I can't give the best Philadelphia fighter since Joe Frazier (who's better than Frazier) the decision in a close fight against a Welsh chump I dislike, what basis do you remotely have left that I'd be bias for Clottey? Margarito was not effective in his aggressiveness, and the little that Clottey did was way more meaningful than Margarito punching gloves and landing partial blows all night. If there's any slanted view about who won the fight it'd be from you, considering your favorite fighter does the same thing Margarito was doing. Difference being, had Joe taken as much fire that came back as Margarito does, he'd not only be behind on all cards against guys like Hopkins, but he'd be out cold. Joe rarely gets hit, Margarito CONSTANTLY is taking clean hard shots. You take away Margarito's chin and he's instantly a bum.

The injury was weeks before the fight, and it completely healed. He was contemplating canceling until it healed.

Margarito still didn't win this fight, he hit gloves the whole night. WHen the hell does showtime even get compubox, I don't trust the numbers at all. Clottey landed the more meaningful shots the entire fight. Hell just watch the rounds I scored it for him, it's not hard to tell. When a fight is watched the first time people are always more inclined to give it to the more active fighter, even if he's accomplishing next to nothing. He had Clottey in a bad situation only once in the fight, I think it was the 9th round. And Clottey turned into Pernell Whitaker as he wiggled on and off the ropes beautifully avoiding Margarito's power shots. Then in the 10th round Clottey pulls a Mayweather and just dances on his ass while pot shotting him, during which time Margarito effectively is able to do absolutely nothing.

The scores two of the judges had after the 12 rounds were complete was 116-112, an entire load of crap. That would mean Clottey did not win ONE single round after the 4th. The fight might not have been a robbery but the scorecards damn sure were, and the guy who had it 118-109 needs to be fired.
I repeat the first bold, the injury healed. I repeat the second bold to prove the fight was a fix.

I just re-watched and re-scored this fight. I had Clottey winning rounds 1-4, 8, 10, and 12 with the 11 round even. So that's 7-4 with 1 even in favor of Clottey. 7-5 would have been reasonable, a draw would not have been terrible, but a scoring it for Margarito is pretty poor, it shows no love for landing clean punches, something Margarito rarely ever did. I think one judge even had it 118-109 for Margarito. The guy needs some glasses, seriously.
There's my scorecard. I even gave acceptable deviations from my score that would be considered justifiable. Outside of that deviation however points to a fix, which I believe the fight was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Alright smartass punch stats, not compubox. Punch stats do mean something, but they're not definitive. I know you're a big Clottey fan so I'm not surprised you have a slanted view on this. First of all Margarito's injury did not heal, he went ahead with the fight because he obviously thought that it wouldn't be much of a problem. But like I said it was much lesser that Clottey's so I'm not using that as an excuse for him. I've watched the fight a few times and never scored it to Clottey. It was pretty close but Clottey got outworked and outlanded in the second half of the fight. If he didn't injure his hand he most likely would have won. You gave it to Clottey wide if I remember right. Do you have a scorecard?
Once again, compubox records mean nothing if the punches did no damage. Although Margarito threw 4x as many punches, Clottey inflicted 4x as much damage.
 
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Fair enough Obama, you seem to be unbias for anyone not named Chad Dawson, I'll give you that. I'm going to have to watch the fight again because from what you two are saying you'd think almost all of Margarito's shots were hitting Clottey's gloves. As the fight went on Clottey was being outworked and the tide was changing and Margarito took control. Do you take ring generalship into account when scoring?
 
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