[RoccoMarciano]

Seen a thread like this on another board.

Who do you feel is best among the well known historians and why?

 

[bill1234]

I know which board . Ummmmmmm...........To be honest Bert Sugar seems to know his stuff stats wise, as does Henry, but often when it comes to lists, people like Sugar, Henry, Fleisure, etc seem to fall short. Often a boxing fan who has watched a ton of boxing and done research will have a better list than them. Because the historians and so called "experts" try to make formulas to creating a list instead of just making it on certain criteria like legnth of reign, head-head match ups etc. They go into height weight, % and more. Stuff that makes it much too complicated.

 

[hhascup]

I know which board . Ummmmmmm...........To be honest Bert Sugar seems to know his stuff stats wise, as does Henry, but often when it comes to lists, people like Sugar, Henry, Fleisure, etc seem to fall short. Often a boxing fan who has watched a ton of boxing and done research will have a better list than them. Because the historians and so called "experts" try to make formulas to creating a list instead of just making it on certain criteria like legnth of reign, head-head match ups etc. They go into height weight, % and more. Stuff that makes it much too complicated.

All I know is that when I try to rate them I go by a number of things including their record, watching tons of tapes, when and who they fought & beat, which does include the sizes of the boxers they fought, what others have to say, as we all can learn something by doing so, etc. If there was a lot of boxing fans in one room, I would try to listen to everyones opinion BUT I have to say that I would listen a little more to the real experts & historians.

I don't know any two Boxing Historians, experts or just fans that will agree 100% on any lists that I have ever seen. I know Bert Sugar very well, BUT I don't agree with some of his listings, BUT I do respect his opinions because he does know his boxing.

I know I go by a lot of STATS, BUT that is one of my ways of trying to figure out who was really the best.

We really only disagree on Rocky, all the rest we are pretty much on the same page.

I know it's impossible to say for 100% who could beat who, BUT it's so much fun trying to do so.

 

[TysonJones]

This guy named Lance Anderson.

 

[TommyGunn]

This guy named Lance Anderson.

:laugh: :thumbsup:

i'll go with BRS.

 

[RoccoMarciano]

Tracy Callis is a good boxing historian, IMO:

The Cyber Boxing Zone -- The Tracy Callis Archives

I don't agree with everything he writes, or with all of his rankings, but his opinions/expertise are well worth your consideration.

 

[TysonJones]

lol Im telling you guys, Mr. Anderson knows his stuff.

 

[hhascup]

I know many Boxing Historians, including all of them at IBRO, which I am a charter member. I believe there approx. 130 members now, here a list of the Charter Members of IBRO 1982

George Blair
David H. Bloch
L. Robert Davids
Luckett Davis
Laurence F. Fielding
Herbert G. Goldman
John Grasso
Henry Hascup ( That's me )
Jack Kincaid
Gary Phillips
Bill Schutte
Johnnie J. Shevalla
Bob Soderman
Jack Stanton
Richard L. Symons

Others that showed interest were:

Bob Bottomley
Jim Leo
Arthur McClure
Donnie Post
Paul Soyka


Here's the latest list of members of IBRO:

Membership includes boxing historians Harold Alderman, Jim Amato, John Bardelli, Bob Benoit, David Bergin, Bo Bilicki, Brian Boru, Johnny Bos, Joseph Bourelly, Tom Brennan, Jim Brown, Ralph Brown, Robert Caico, Tracy Callis, Martin Sosa Cameron, Steve Canton, Jim Carlin, Robert Carson, Mike Casey, James Cashman, Ralph Cathcart, Patrick Chafe, Don Cogswell, Vince Colitti, Robert W. Collins, Julian Compton, Jimmy Connors, Paolo Consiglio, Jose Corpas, Jeff Cox, Monte Cox, Chris Cozzone, Dan Cuoco, Sean Curtin, Luckett Davis, Mike DeLisa, John DiSanto, J. Karel de Vries, Barry Deskins, Parry Desmond, Tom Donelson, Bruce Edelstein, Robert Fanelli, Laurence Fielding, Jeff Flanagan, Christer Franzen, Ray Fritz, Tony Gee, Donald Giusti, Herb Goldman, Stephen Gordon, Bill Gray, Sam Gregory, Don Hamilton, Dan Hanley, John Hanlon, Henry Hascup, Chuck Hasson, Bobby Hinds, Barry Hugman, Michael Hunnicutt, Kevin Isgoe, Charles E. Johnston, James J. Johnston, Eric Jorgensen, Hank Kaplan, Ove Karlsson, Austin Killeen, Ric Kilmer, Donald Koss, Christopher LaForce, Joe Lannan, Harold Lederman, Mitch Levin, Zhenyu Li, Frank Lotierzo, Steve Lott, Bjorn Ljungberg, Don Majeski, Michael Mayersohn, Ray McCormack, Bill Miley, Clay Moyle, Patrick Myler, Hap Navarro, Kelly Nicholson, Denis Nolan, Kurt Noltimier, John Ochs, Reinaldo Oliveria, Jr., Alister Scott Ottesen, Harry Otty, Gary Phillips, Harrin Platzner, Mike Pusateri, Pember Rocap, Allan Rosenfeld, Ted Sares, Tom Scharf, Sid Schneck, Gary Schultz, Dr. Jan Scotniki, Harry Shaffer, Phil Shea, Jack Sheehan, John Sheppard, Mike Silver, Bruce Smith, Stan Smith, Stanley S. Smith, Frank Stallone, Pete Susens, Matt Tegen, Bruce Trampler, Miles Ugarkovich, Roberto Valero, Ture Widland, Robert Winkler, Robert Yalen, and Paul Zabala.


We all work together to try to make boxing records as accurate as possible. A lot of these same guys are also editors on Boxrec like myself.

Just today I gave information out to Vince Colitti and Luckett Davis.

 

[RoccoMarciano]

I know many Boxing Historians, including all of them at IBRO, which I am a charter member. I believe there approx. 130 members now, here a list of the Charter Members of IBRO 1982

George Blair
David H. Bloch
L. Robert Davids
Luckett Davis
Laurence F. Fielding
Herbert G. Goodman
John Grasso
Henry Hascup ( That's me )
Jack Kincaid
Gary Phillips
Bill Schutte
Johnnie J. Shevalla
Bob Soderman
Jack Stanton
Richard L. Symons

Others that showed interest were:

Bob Bottomley
Jim Leo
Arthur McClure
Donnie Post
Paul Soyka


Here's the latest list of members of IBRO:

Membership includes boxing historians Harold Alderman, Jim Amato, John Bardelli, Bob Benoit, David Bergin, Bo Bilicki, Brian Boru, Johnny Bos, Joseph Bourelly, Tom Brennan, Jim Brown, Ralph Brown, Robert Caico, Tracy Callis, Martin Sosa Cameron, Steve Canton, Jim Carlin, Robert Carson, Mike Casey, James Cashman, Ralph Cathcart, Patrick Chafe, Don Cogswell, Vince Colitti, Robert W. Collins, Julian Compton, Jimmy Connors, Paolo Consiglio, Jose Corpas, Jeff Cox, Monte Cox, Chris Cozzone, Dan Cuoco, Sean Curtin, Luckett Davis, Mike DeLisa, John DiSanto, J. Karel de Vries, Barry Deskins, Parry Desmond, Tom Donelson, Bruce Edelstein, Robert Fanelli, Laurence Fielding, Jeff Flanagan, Christer Franzen, Ray Fritz, Tony Gee, Donald Giusti, Herb Goldman, Stephen Gordon, Bill Gray, Sam Gregory, Don Hamilton, Dan Hanley, John Hanlon, Henry Hascup, Chuck Hasson, Bobby Hinds, Barry Hugman, Michael Hunnicutt, Kevin Isgoe, Charles E. Johnston, James J. Johnston, Eric Jorgensen, Hank Kaplan, Ove Karlsson, Austin Killeen, Ric Kilmer, Donald Koss, Christopher LaForce, Joe Lannan, Harold Lederman, Mitch Levin, Zhenyu Li, Frank Lotierzo, Steve Lott, Bjorn Ljungberg, Don Majeski, Michael Mayersohn, Ray McCormack, Bill Miley, Clay Moyle, Patrick Myler, Hap Navarro, Kelly Nicholson, Denis Nolan, Kurt Noltimier, John Ochs, Reinaldo Oliveria, Jr., Alister Scott Ottesen, Harry Otty, Gary Phillips, Harrin Platzner, Mike Pusateri, Pember Rocap, Allan Rosenfeld, Ted Sares, Tom Scharf, Sid Schneck, Gary Schultz, Dr. Jan Scotniki, Harry Shaffer, Phil Shea, Jack Sheehan, John Sheppard, Mike Silver, Bruce Smith, Stan Smith, Stanley S. Smith, Frank Stallone, Pete Susens, Matt Tegen, Bruce Trampler, Miles Ugarkovich, Roberto Valero, Ture Widland, Robert Winkler, Robert Yalen, and Paul Zabala.


We all work together to try to make boxing records as accurate as possible. A lot of these same guys are also editors on Boxrec like myself.

Just today I gave information out to Vince Colitti and Luckett Davis.

I acknowledge you as an expert, Henry. I just don't think much of some of your opinions, the same is true of Callis - although I do think quite a lot of what he has to say. You've already stated that is fairly normal regarding boxing

 

[hhascup]

I acknowledge you as an expert, Henry. I just don't think much of some of your opinions, the same is true of Callis - although I do think quite a lot of what he has to say. You've already stated that is fairly normal regarding boxing

Like I stated many times, their is not 2 boxing historians that will agree on everything. The only thing we disagree about is on Rocky, and that is cool with me because we can't agree on everything either.

I try to go by what I know, which is, the records, watching tapes, look at who they fought and beat, listen to what others have to say, etc. I know I list a lot of STATS, BUT that is a BIG part of trying to rate the boxers, BUT I also know that it's not the only thing.

When I am with Bert Sugar or Herb Goldman we have a Great talk and none of us will agree 100%.

Their were times I heard them and others, make speeches and they said something that was wrong. I didn't stand up and say, your wrong, BUT I would tell them after they got through.

I have made countless amount of speeches and I have also debated many other boxing historians, so called experts and fans and I always have fun doing so. I also do this on many other sports as well.

Again, it's alright to disagree BUT we should all try to respect ones opinions.

 

[RoccoMarciano]

Like I stated many times, their is not 2 boxing historians that will agree on everything. The only thing we disagree about is on Rocky, and that is cool with me because we can't agree on everything either.

I try to go by what I know, which is, the records, watching tapes, look at who they fought and beat, listen to what others have to say, etc. I know I list a lot of STATS, BUT that is a BIG part of trying to rate the boxers, BUT I also know that it's not the only thing.

When I am with Bert Sugar or Herb Goldman we have a Great talk and none of us will agree 100%.

Their were times I heard them and others, make speeches and they said something that was wrong. I didn't stand up and say, your wrong, BUT I would tell them after they got through.

I have made countless amount of speeches and I have also debated many other boxing historians, so called experts and fans and I always have fun doing so. I also do this on many other sports as well.

Again, it's alright to disagree BUT we should all try to respect ones opinions.

Of course I disagree with you and Callis on some things... and not just Marciano. That is what makes something such as boxing fun. Do you tick me off at times, Henry, yeah, but I've never once questioned your right, or authority, in saying it!

I gain insight from others probably 1-3 times a week. Not in a boxing realm, but that is how we need to function to be a cohesive unit. We gain from what the other thinks, as a team.

In any event, I respect your opinions - agree with most.

 

[hhascup]

Of course I disagree with you and Callis on some things... and not just Marciano. That is what makes something such as boxing fun. Do you tick me off at times, Henry, yeah, but I've never once questioned your right, or authority, in saying it!

I gain insight from others probably 1-3 times a week. Not in a boxing realm, but that is how we need to function to be a cohesive unit. We gain from what the other thinks, as a team.

In any event, I respect your opinions - agree with most.

Likewise!

I really don't want to tick anyone off, BUT I just state the facts as I know them. You might not agree, and I accept that too, I just give my opinions and let the other person figure the rest out for themselves.

Once again, it's GREAT having debates about this I only wish we all lived around the same area so I can really show you all in information that backs up all my facts.

 

[bill1234]

My heavyweight list is pretty much made up and modified by different people's opinions. From what Ive noticed, Holmes is on average ranked from 6-3. I have him at 4. Foreman and Frazier are usually 10-5. Same with Liston. I have them at 7,8, and 9. Jack Johnson, Lennox Lewis, Ezzard Charles, and Gene Tunney are hardest for me to rank. Because you can make so many arguments for each one to be in the top 10, and where. IMO Johnson should be no lower than 7, but no higher than 3. But thats just me.

 

[hhascup]

My heavyweight list is pretty much made up and modified by different people's opinions. From what Ive noticed, Holmes is on average ranked from 6-3. I have him at 4. Foreman and Frazier are usually 10-5. Same with Liston. I have them at 7,8, and 9. Jack Johnson, Lennox Lewis, Ezzard Charles, and Gene Tunney are hardest for me to rank. Because you can make so many arguments for each one to be in the top 10, and where. IMO Johnson should be no lower than 7, but no higher than 3. But thats just me.

Bill, I agree with you on Holmes. Also when you rate Tunney and Charles, it's hard to say where they actually rate as a Heavyweight because they fought mostly in lighter weight classes either most of their career or in their prime.

 

[TommyGunn]

I know many Boxing Historians, including all of them at IBRO, which I am a charter member. I believe there approx. 130 members now, here a list of the Charter Members of IBRO 1982

George Blair
David H. Bloch
L. Robert Davids
Luckett Davis
Laurence F. Fielding
Herbert G. Goodman
John Grasso
Henry Hascup ( That's me )
Jack Kincaid
Gary Phillips
Bill Schutte
Johnnie J. Shevalla
Bob Soderman
Jack Stanton
Richard L. Symons

Others that showed interest were:

Bob Bottomley
Jim Leo
Arthur McClure
Donnie Post
Paul Soyka


Here's the latest list of members of IBRO:

Membership includes boxing historians Harold Alderman, Jim Amato, John Bardelli, Bob Benoit, David Bergin, Bo Bilicki, Brian Boru, Johnny Bos, Joseph Bourelly, Tom Brennan, Jim Brown, Ralph Brown, Robert Caico, Tracy Callis, Martin Sosa Cameron, Steve Canton, Jim Carlin, Robert Carson, Mike Casey, James Cashman, Ralph Cathcart, Patrick Chafe, Don Cogswell, Vince Colitti, Robert W. Collins, Julian Compton, Jimmy Connors, Paolo Consiglio, Jose Corpas, Jeff Cox, Monte Cox, Chris Cozzone, Dan Cuoco, Sean Curtin, Luckett Davis, Mike DeLisa, John DiSanto, J. Karel de Vries, Barry Deskins, Parry Desmond, Tom Donelson, Bruce Edelstein, Robert Fanelli, Laurence Fielding, Jeff Flanagan, Christer Franzen, Ray Fritz, Tony Gee, Donald Giusti, Herb Goldman, Stephen Gordon, Bill Gray, Sam Gregory, Don Hamilton, Dan Hanley, John Hanlon, Henry Hascup, Chuck Hasson, Bobby Hinds, Barry Hugman, Michael Hunnicutt, Kevin Isgoe, Charles E. Johnston, James J. Johnston, Eric Jorgensen, Hank Kaplan, Ove Karlsson, Austin Killeen, Ric Kilmer, Donald Koss, Christopher LaForce, Joe Lannan, Harold Lederman, Mitch Levin, Zhenyu Li, Frank Lotierzo, Steve Lott, Bjorn Ljungberg, Don Majeski, Michael Mayersohn, Ray McCormack, Bill Miley, Clay Moyle, Patrick Myler, Hap Navarro, Kelly Nicholson, Denis Nolan, Kurt Noltimier, John Ochs, Reinaldo Oliveria, Jr., Alister Scott Ottesen, Harry Otty, Gary Phillips, Harrin Platzner, Mike Pusateri, Pember Rocap, Allan Rosenfeld, Ted Sares, Tom Scharf, Sid Schneck, Gary Schultz, Dr. Jan Scotniki, Harry Shaffer, Phil Shea, Jack Sheehan, John Sheppard, Mike Silver, Bruce Smith, Stan Smith, Stanley S. Smith, Frank Stallone, Pete Susens, Matt Tegen, Bruce Trampler, Miles Ugarkovich, Roberto Valero, Ture Widland, Robert Winkler, Robert Yalen, and Paul Zabala.


We all work together to try to make boxing records as accurate as possible. A lot of these same guys are also editors on Boxrec like myself.

Just today I gave information out to Vince Colitti and Luckett Davis.

jim amato is a very knowledgable guy to, he's on a rival forum and ive had a good few discussions with him.

he's also a very good guy.

 

[TysonJones]

jim amato is a very knowledgeable guy.

 

[hhascup]

jim amato is a very knowledgeable guy.

Most of the members of IBRO are pretty good, some better then others.

Several months ago, Greg Goodrich of Box-Press asked Harold Lederman at a PPV show if he knew of anyone that can answer some hard off the wall boxing questions and do a lot of research with making out lists.

Harold gave him my name and E-Mail address. I didn't know it at the time so I had no idea why I was getting these E-mails from Greg. He sends out the E-Mails to 967 members, with at least 600 or more Boxing Writers and the rest is to mostly Boxing Historians or Experts.

When he asked the questions, I answered everyone and gave him more lists and Stats then anyone. Some people joked and said that I should be banned.

Here's what was written:

Greg,
Henry Hascup is too much, and shouldn't be allowed to enter these contests (ha,ha)!!!

Actually he is a great guy who just happens to be overloaded with sports knowledge, as well as being the president of the NJ Boxing Hall of Fame - a great person involved in our sport, a true plus for boxing!

Thanks Greg and hope all is well. Keep the faith - Mike

Mike Indri
Retired Boxers Foundation
[email protected]
Hey Henry,

Harold Lederman also said you should be barred from participating,
as it is unfair to others! ha ha

I am glad to see that Sean Curtin and Adam Pollack now have some competition in this regard!

Best regards,

Greg


Right now he wants me to be his Research Editor when he gets his web site up and running. He actually gave me a choice and I picked that one.

 

[ironmike19]

i truly believe there are great boxing historians out there, but the one everyone knows and truly admire is bert randolph sugar.

 

[TommyGunn]

our henry owns all on that list. :cheeky4:

 

[SugarShane]

I like Sugar, but he pisses me off at the same time. The guy is stuck in the past and doesn't give proper credit to current/more recent boxers. He is always so quick to say "well blank would have beaten them." It just gets annoying to me. I'm a Nigel Collins fan when it comes to just telling it like it is.