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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over boxing's history its had a lot of controversy, whether it be a bad decision, a ref's BS call, or a dive/fix. Lets talk about some of these controversies.

Cassius Clay II (Muhammad Ali) versus Sonny Liston, both fights. The heavyweight champ Sonny Liston was TKO'd in the 7th round after refusing to come out of his corner. Liston claimed an injured shoulder, and had medical evidence to back this up. But along with that, there have been reports that Liston took a dive in both of his fights with Clay, and that the mob was involved. Liston later on admited he took a dive. Whether he said that so he wouldn't have to admit he was beaten by the young loud mouth Clay, or if he truly did take a dive. Liston was declining at this point in his career, but he still was dominating knocking people out left and right. He was one of the rare champions that won the belt past their prime. Liston's true prime was during the late 50's, but didn't win the belt until 1962 by knocking out Floyd Patterson in 1 round. He lost the title in 1964 to Clay. Reportedly, Liston got a mysterious phone call from an anonymous (spelling) person from the mob telling him that he better lose...or else. Or else what no one knows.
Liston was found dead in 1970 in his hotel room. It is unknown how, possibly an overdose of drugs, possibly the mob, or possibly from his body just shutting down.
Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali in 1965, and went on to have a fantastic career. He is still living, and is currently 65 years old, but most likely only has a few years left on this Earth.

Kid Gavilan vs Billy Graham:
The champion Kid Gavilan, the challenger Billy Graham. This was a very controversial fight (their 3rd of 4 or 5). This fight occured in the early 1950's, when the mob had more power than the commisions, and ultimately controled the out comes of fights. Although a few champions managed to stay out of it, and managed to win fights on their own, such champions were Rocky Marciano, Carmine Basilio, and Sugar Ray Robinson. Kid Gavilan was not one of them. He was heavily tied into the mob, much like Sonny Liston and Jake LaMotta (unwillingly though). Billy Graham was the victim of an atrocious decision against Gavilan. The judges were paid off by the mob to score for Gavilan no matter what, but to make the scoring look real as possible so people wouldn't suspect much. Well, Graham beat Gavilan pretty badly. Gavilan was battered and beaten at the end, but still got the verdict. Graham would pick off Gavilan's jabs, and nail him with right hand counters. Later on 1 of the judges admitted that he normally would have scored it about 10-5 or 11-4 for Graham, but he had to or the mob would have killed him.

Larry Holmes vs Michael Spinks I and II: Heavyweight champion Larry Holmes was aiming to tie Rocky Marciano's record of 49-0-0. Holmes was 48-0-0 and was the reigning champion. He had 20 title defences, and was going for his 21st. It was a close fight, but many feel Holmes deserved the nod. Even Marciano's brother, Peter, said that Larry probably deserved it. Peter was also the one that made Larry so mad before and after the fight by telling Larry that he was praying he would lose, that he doesn't deserve to tie Rocky's record, and just being him self (an arogant, ignorant, prick). Afterwards he was partying and telling Larry that he was happy he didn't get the decision. Along with Peter, the press egged Larry on, making him madder and madder, until he finally said the famous lines "If you want to get technical about the whole thing...Rocky couldn't carry my jock strap...and if I hurt your feelings back there Sonny, is your name Sonny? 'My names Peter', well if I hurt your feelings, SO F***ING WHAT?". The already unpopular Holmes (mainly for beating Ali and being in his shaddow) was hated even more so. He appologized many times after it.
The rematch: In the rematch Holmes beat the piss out of Spinks, almost dropping him once, hurting him 5 or 6 times, and rocking him even more. Holmes was stiffed out of the decision again, this is known as one of the worst decisions in boxing history. After the fight Michael Spinks was asked what he thought he did to deserve the decision, all he could do was basically say a little of this or that. In other words, he knew he got lucky on the scorecards. After the fight Larry was furious, absolutely furious. Again the press egged his anger on. And he said "...and the referees, the judges, the commisions, the promoters, you can kiss where the sun don't shine...and since were on HBO thats my big black behind!".

I will do more stories later.
 

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I JUST WATCHED STEVE FORBES V D-HOP again there guys and i know it was this year but this one really stunk the place out.

i dont see how a fighter could easily win 10 rounds of 12 rounder and still lose on points.

theres been an interesting article about this one on the NET the past few days to and young hop even admitted to forbes he should not have got the win in that one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jake LaMotta vs Billy Fox:
Jake LaMotta was looking for a title shot, and the only way he could get it is if he took a dive against Billy Fox (remember, the mob controled boxing back then). Billy Fox didn't know it, but he was really a terrible fighter, just his manager had connections with the mob, and had a bunch of fixes made. Poor Billy thought he really was something special, and that he could hit like a truck, but his entire knock out string was nothing but a bunch of dives. Jake LaMotta was looking for a title shot, and he didn't like it, but he knew he had to use the mob to get it. They matched him up against Billy Fox, and told him that if he took the dive, he would get his title shot. So LaMotta took the dive, which was very hard to do considering how bad Fox was. LaMotta was letting Fox hit him and still made Fox look bad. In the end LaMotta lost. He said it was really hard to lose even trying because Fox hit like a girl and was so bad. Even after the dive LaMotta had to pay $20,000 to get his long deserved title shot.
 

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I JUST WATCHED STEVE FORBES V D-HOP again there guys and i know it was this year but this one really stunk the place out.

i dont see how a fighter could easily win 10 rounds of 12 rounder and still lose on points.

theres been an interesting article about this one on the NET the past few days to and young hop even admitted to forbes he should not have got the win in that one.
How about Casamayor's last fight against Santa Cruz? No way in hell Casamayor won that fight. He clearly got dominated that whole fight. Another BS decision that makes boxing look bad.:thumbsdown:
 

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Larry Holmes for me was the winner,i watched that fight & Michael Spinks was not in his class.Over Rocky Marciano's record the fight was taken off him,i wont say on other boxers here as it was before my time.No wonder Holmes was furious he was the better boxer & we know this.Some decision that are made amaze me even till this day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ali/Norton II or III? or Pernell Whitaker/Jose Luis Ramirez.

Ali-Norton III was really bad. In my ATG record if decisions went your way, that was one of the losses I gave to Ali. Terrible decision, Ali got that win pretty much only on his name.
 

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cooney being introduced second even though larry was champion in the holmes cooney fight was crazy. holmes pounded him so he got his revenge.

battle of the long count dempsey-tunney 2

joe louis jersey joe walcott 1

jack johnson- jess willard
 

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Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Chesar Chavez was also a really bad decision i had Pernell winning that fight rather easy.
 

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Tyson v Douglas.

Douglas was down for around 15 seconds!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tyson v Douglas.

Douglas was down for around 15 seconds!

More like 11, the count doesn't start until you go to the neutral corner the ref sends you to, thats why the long count happened in Tunney-Dempsey.
 

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I think DLH-Pea was close, but it wasnt robbery. I thought Pernell edged it too, but some rounds were close so i can see DLH winning.
 

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Like I stated many times before, I know a lot of boxing judges and all of them that I know are honest. Also, judges have to be trained, they have to know what to look for, etc. I am not saying that I agree with all the decisions, BUT the judges are in the best position to score a bout.

I have talked to Harold Lederman many times about the Ali/Norton 3 and he stands by his score of 8-7. I also talked to Arthur Mercante, who was not only one of the judges, BUT he was also the referee, and he also stands by his score of 8-6-1.

My questions is, how many of you have gone through any kind of training on how to score a bout. I know, your going to say, well I have been a fan for X amount of years and I think I know how to score a fight. Well, how many football or basketball games have you seen, could you honestly tell me that you could referee their games.

All I am saying is that with every close decision, there well be some that will not agree with the decision, and this goes for us and a lot of professional Boxing Judges.
 
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