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Discussion Starter #1
Calzaghe seems like a good guy and I have nothing against him. I’m going to appear like a hater, **** it I feel like it has to be done. I feel Calzaghe’ record title defenses is a sham and his fans saying he beat better fighters than Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins during their reigns as champions. This is from the beginning of his WBO title reign to his unification fight against Lacy.

Chris Eubank- had lost to Steve Collins the fight before and didn’t win after Calzaghe so you can determine he might been shot and I think he was over rated in the first place
Branko Sobot- was 14-1 when they fought his one loss was to Hacine Cherifi before ended his career 19-11 you do the math
Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra- had been fighting for 16 years was shot and never a world beater he lost his next fight to an old Jorge Fernando Castro
Robin Reid- a close fight and sd against a respectable contender that had lost the fight before to Thulani Malinga (Jones-Malinga KO6) lost his next fight to Silvio Branco never won a major alphabet belt
Rick Thornberry- decisioned a guy who got ko’ed before by Henry Wharton and Colin Wilson (who?)
David Starie- ko’ed by Dean Francis (who?) never won any major alphabet titles
Omar Sheika- entered 20-1 went after7-7 fighting mediocre competition after it
Richie Woodhall- lost fight before this one against Markus Beyer never fought again afterwards
Mario Veit (twice)- pummeled all tomato cans, was undefeated who he beat to deserve a title shot ask the WBO?
Will McIntyre- was beat by Dana Rosenblatt before and fought only once outside of Louisiana and Mississippi and it was against, guess who?
Chareles Brewer- got knocked out in 3; the fight before against Antwun Echols went 3-2 after getting knocked out by Veit
Miguel Angel Jimenez- never fought anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight afterwards to Brian McGee and retired
Tocker Pudwill- was a 2 week replacement and never beat anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight to Vinny Pazienza
Byron Mitchell- lost the fight before to Sven Otke and the next one to Richard Hall
Mger Mitchkin- never fought anyone before and did not deserve a shot in the first place
Kabary Salem- Lost to Veit before and tko’ed by Bute after
Evans Ashira- Lost to Maselino Masoe the fight before

As you can see Jones’ and Hopkins competition beats Calzaghe’ competition (I mean that literally check the records) . Frank Warren did a great job managing JC and the fact that the WBO and its mandatories are a joke. Most of these guys were British Commonwealth champs and most you could also find were also beaten by Sven Ottke and/or Dennis Inkin. His fans want to act like he has been beating Lacy, Kessler, and Hopkins his whole career, he hasn’t. I will catch a lot of hate for this but I want to point out the hipocresy of the people stating he would beat or has faced better competition than Jones Jr. and Hopkins.
 

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Calzaghe seems like a good guy and I have nothing against him. I’m going to appear like a hater, **** it I feel like it has to be done. I feel Calzaghe’ record title defenses is a sham and his fans saying he beat better fighters than Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins during their reigns as champions. This is from the beginning of his WBO title reign to his unification fight against Lacy.

Chris Eubank- had lost to Steve Collins the fight before and didn’t win after Calzaghe so you can determine he might been shot and I think he was over rated in the first place
Branko Sobot- was 14-1 when they fought his one loss was to Hacine Cherifi before ended his career 19-11 you do the math
Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra- had been fighting for 16 years was shot and never a world beater he lost his next fight to an old Jorge Fernando Castro
Robin Reid- a close fight and sd against a respectable contender that had lost the fight before to Thulani Malinga (Jones-Malinga KO6) lost his next fight to Silvio Branco never won a major alphabet belt
Rick Thornberry- decisioned a guy who got ko’ed before by Henry Wharton and Colin Wilson (who?)
David Starie- ko’ed by Dean Francis (who?) never won any major alphabet titles
Omar Sheika- entered 20-1 went after7-7 fighting mediocre competition after it
Richie Woodhall- lost fight before this one against Markus Beyer never fought again afterwards
Mario Veit (twice)- pummeled all tomato cans, was undefeated who he beat to deserve a title shot ask the WBO?
Will McIntyre- was beat by Dana Rosenblatt before and fought only once outside of Louisiana and Mississippi and it was against, guess who?
Chareles Brewer- got knocked out in 3; the fight before against Antwun Echols went 3-2 after getting knocked out by Veit
Miguel Angel Jimenez- never fought anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight afterwards to Brian McGee and retired
Tocker Pudwill- was a 2 week replacement and never beat anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight to Vinny Pazienza
Byron Mitchell- lost the fight before to Sven Otke and the next one to Richard Hall
Mger Mitchkin- never fought anyone before and did not deserve a shot in the first place
Kabary Salem- Lost to Veit before and tko’ed by Bute after
Evans Ashira- Lost to Maselino Masoe the fight before

As you can see Jones’ and Hopkins competition beats Calzaghe’ competition (I mean that literally check the records) . Frank Warren did a great job managing JC and the fact that the WBO and its mandatories are a joke. Most of these guys were British Commonwealth champs and most you could also find were also beaten by Sven Ottke and/or Dennis Inkin. His fans want to act like he has been beating Lacy, Kessler, and Hopkins his whole career, he hasn’t. I will catch a lot of hate for this but I want to point out the hipocresy of the people stating he would beat or has faced better competition than Jones Jr. and Hopkins.
I still kinda like Calzaghe, but this is one of your best posts ever, Hector. :thumbsup: I honestly didn't know it was this bad.
 

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I agree with the point that his reign was against weaker competition. No question.

I mean this doesnt take away from the fact that hes a terrific boxer, because he is. But I agree with alot of what you said there.
 

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I still kinda like Calzaghe, but this is one of your best posts ever, Hector. :thumbsup: I honestly didn't know it was this bad.

You know, I was looking at this(his records and opponents, etc) the other day and thinking the same thing believe it or not...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I still kinda like Calzaghe, but this is one of your best posts ever, Hector. :thumbsup: I honestly didn't know it was this bad.
Thanks Shane, just stating the facts
I agree with the point that his reign was against weaker competition. No question.

I mean this doesnt take away from the fact that hes a terrific boxer, because he is. But I agree with alot of what you said there.
He is a terrific unique boxer and has done some gained alot of respect the last couple years. Their was good reason that alot of people bet against him when he faced Lacy. I wanted to remind some people that and have forgot he faced nobodies til a couple years ago. Either from Frank Warren not having confidence in him or/and Calz himself he wasted most of his prime.
 

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Calzaghe seems like a good guy and I have nothing against him. I’m going to appear like a hater, **** it I feel like it has to be done. I feel Calzaghe’ record title defenses is a sham and his fans saying he beat better fighters than Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins during their reigns as champions. This is from the beginning of his WBO title reign to his unification fight against Lacy.

Chris Eubank- had lost to Steve Collins the fight before and didn’t win after Calzaghe so you can determine he might been shot and I think he was over rated in the first place
Branko Sobot- was 14-1 when they fought his one loss was to Hacine Cherifi before ended his career 19-11 you do the math
Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra- had been fighting for 16 years was shot and never a world beater he lost his next fight to an old Jorge Fernando Castro
Robin Reid- a close fight and sd against a respectable contender that had lost the fight before to Thulani Malinga (Jones-Malinga KO6) lost his next fight to Silvio Branco never won a major alphabet belt
Rick Thornberry- decisioned a guy who got ko’ed before by Henry Wharton and Colin Wilson (who?)
David Starie- ko’ed by Dean Francis (who?) never won any major alphabet titles
Omar Sheika- entered 20-1 went after7-7 fighting mediocre competition after it
Richie Woodhall- lost fight before this one against Markus Beyer never fought again afterwards
Mario Veit (twice)- pummeled all tomato cans, was undefeated who he beat to deserve a title shot ask the WBO?
Will McIntyre- was beat by Dana Rosenblatt before and fought only once outside of Louisiana and Mississippi and it was against, guess who?
Chareles Brewer- got knocked out in 3; the fight before against Antwun Echols went 3-2 after getting knocked out by Veit
Miguel Angel Jimenez- never fought anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight afterwards to Brian McGee and retired
Tocker Pudwill- was a 2 week replacement and never beat anyone to deserve a title shot and lost his next fight to Vinny Pazienza
Byron Mitchell- lost the fight before to Sven Otke and the next one to Richard Hall
Mger Mitchkin- never fought anyone before and did not deserve a shot in the first place
Kabary Salem- Lost to Veit before and tko’ed by Bute after
Evans Ashira- Lost to Maselino Masoe the fight before

As you can see Jones’ and Hopkins competition beats Calzaghe’ competition (I mean that literally check the records) . Frank Warren did a great job managing JC and the fact that the WBO and its mandatories are a joke. Most of these guys were British Commonwealth champs and most you could also find were also beaten by Sven Ottke and/or Dennis Inkin. His fans want to act like he has been beating Lacy, Kessler, and Hopkins his whole career, he hasn’t. I will catch a lot of hate for this but I want to point out the hipocresy of the people stating he would beat or has faced better competition than Jones Jr. and Hopkins.
What irritates me a lot with this post DRPUGILIST is that I have given you opportunity after opportunity for to you to present a case in thread after thread where I have presented the facts against Jones's record, specifically where I have stated the case for Calzaghe in a head to head view with Jones, but you didn't accept that gauntlet on any occasion did you?

Then you slip off here and post a semantical and bias representation of the argument in a setting where I wasn't present.

If this case of your above is so good ands water tight why didn't you ever present it at the time hey?

I mean you have had ample number of threads to face me on this haven't you?

Never mind let's look at the problems with your very selective use of the facts.


First of all you say that Chris Eubank must have been shot because he lost the fight prior to Steve Collins.

May I remind you that in beating Chris Eubank Collins had followed up his victories against Nigel Benn and in doing so had become the best 168 fighter on the planet and the fighter that Roy Jones ran away from for over three years!!!

Steve Collins fought the best and is one of the best 168 fighters of all time.

So Eubank was shot according to you on the basis that he lost to one of the best 168o fighters ever?

I contend that this is rubbish.

As for not rating Chris Eubank too much, I should remind you that Eubank was one of the longest serving 168 world champions of all time, world champion for 5 years consecutively.

Chris Eubank took on the best fighters of the decade at 160 and at 168 in a host of unification bouts something that only Roy Jones avoided, having of course avoided every single fighter of note at 160 at 168 in his career.

So your contention that Eubank was shot is rubbish and your contention that one of the best 168 fighters of all time was not that good is also rubbish. On which note Chris Eubank was another fighter that Roy Jones managed to avoid/duck his whole career.

You mention Robin Reid and say that he was quote a “respectable contender that had lost the fight before to Thulani Malinga”.

First of all I have to correct you in that Robin Reid was NOT a respectable contender, but in fact a fighter who is just outside the top ten best 168 fighters of all time.

Not only did Robin Reid fight a prime Calzaghe to a split decision, giving Calzaghe a tougher fight than Bernard Hopkins gave him (the latter fight’s score was only in doubt due to its location, it would never have been a split decision outside of the US); Robin Reid also was a former WBC 168 world champion, by knocking out a Vincenzo Nardiello away in Italy in 4 rounds he also lost controversially to the unbeaten (another one of the best guys ever at 168) Sven Ottke, where if it wasn’t for terrible refereeing he would have won another two 168 world titles.

So then Robin Reid was a former WBC 168 world champion, he was controversially reffed and givena poor verdict against Ottke for another two world champion belts at 168 and he was only split decisioned by a prime Calzaghe.

Added to which Robin Reid was never K.O’d until he was well past his prime and he was also a former bronze medal Olympic boxer.

Your statement then is rubbish.

Robin Reid was NOT a respectable contender but a fantastic/top contender and a big fight of Calzaghe’s career.

You have tried to take the shine off this fact by pointing to the fact that Reid had dropped a decision to Malinga. But anyone who looks through Malinga’s career knows that he was very, very inconsistent and fought fantastically tough and fantastically weakly and poor almost in alternate fights, hence Malinga’s up and down record against many contenders, winning one fight and losing the next to many guys.

To try and lesson what Calzaghe did in beating Reid is to ignore the majority of Reid’s career, it is to ignore the fight itself where Reid fought brilliantly, it is to ignore the caliber of the guy generally and if you are going off such singular facts we could all look at the caliber of the guys that Hopkins lost to early in his career and say- ergo Hopkins isn’t any good, but that would be rubbish….much like your statement on Robin Reid.

Did you even watch the fight?

Mmm

Next Richie Woodhall.

You have tried to lesson what the caliber of Woodhall just as you did Reid by ignoring the majority of the facts.

Richie Woodhall again was a former 168 WBC world Champion and former olypic bronze medal boxer.

His career was

26 wins (16 via K.O) with just three losses.

You mention that he lost to Markus Beyer, to which I say so what, Marcus has been a top fighter at 168.

So all you have against Woodhall is the fact that he was beaten 3 times in his careera as a former world champion at this weight and that two of his three loses have come against a P4P great and a top, top 168 fighter in Marcus Beyer.

So I say to you that Woodhall was once again a top fighter and serious contender for Calzaghe, but I am guessing because he is not American, like Marcus, Robind Reid, Eubank etc you don’t rate him LMAO!!!!!

Do you rate anything that is further away than the shores of the US?

The fact of the matter is Woodhall as good as he was, was retired by the combination of Marcus and Calzaghe; Richie obviously felt he had nowhere to go hence the retirement.

You mention Charles Brewer.

I personally did not rate Brewer, but the fact of the matter is, he was a standard/average contender/ opponent for world titles at 168 at this time.

This is shown by the fact that Brewer was a former IBF world champion at 168 having beaten the even crapper Antonine Byrd who Jones fought in defense of his IBF 168 strap. The fact that he was not a piss taking defense, but one of those standard defenses, of guys that don’t quite make it but get to the top of contender lists, I point to the fact that he fought Sven Ottke (unbeaten multiple world champion) twice to split decision losses.

So no- Brewer wasn’t that good, but he got his shot at Calzaghe because he was one of those guys who beat enough people to get his shots against multiple belt holders, not just Calzaghe and in doing so won a 168 belt at one point, something Byrd who Jones fought in a title defense never did!!

I could go through the rest of your list but I don’t see the point as it is arguing on your grounds and I feel I have done that enough and I feel I have quoted you enough.

Let’s look at the bigger picture.

I notice that your take on Calzaghe’s record leaves out his defenses against Kessler and Lacy LMAO!!!!!

Oops

And Hopkins.

Pissing myself laughing!!!

So looking at the bigger picture and not trying to dispute the little details the picture as I see it is this;

Calzaghe fought big defenses in;

Eubank (one of the best ever at 168, former world champion and one of the longest ever serving 168 world champions who fought all the best at 168)

Robin Reid (just outside the top ten ever at 168 and former WBC 168 world champion)

Richie Woodhall (former WBC 168 world champion)

Jeff Lacy (unbeaten 168 world champion, unification fight, big knockout specialist and highly rated)

Mikkel Kessler (multiple world title holder with big K.O record and unbeaten big unification bout to clear up the division)

Bernard Hopkins (stepping up to fight away in the US in world title fight with no warm up fight against a guy who had long since put big loses behind him)


Now Roy Jones in comparison fought these in defense of his IBF 168 strap

Antoine Byrd (never won a world title, no mark, lost to Brewer in world title fight)

Vinny Pazienza (blown-up lightweight)

Tony Thornton (a postman)

Merqui Sosa (who? Oh yea he never won any world title, lost prior attempt by UD to Michael Nunn, lost in a third attempt at a world title as well)

Eric Lucas (who? He lost two attempts at world title shots and then won a vacated belt and held a few times until Marcus Beyer beat him)

Bryant Brannon (who? Precisely another complete no mark, never got another world title shot against anyone).

Every single one of the above was a Roy Jones IBF 168 world title defense.

And get this, he did not fight anyone else ever, these are all of Roy jones’s defenses at 168!!!

The only person of any note Roy Jones ever beat at 168 was James Toney to win the belt in the first place!

Looking back at the two years that Roy spent beating up of utter trash, that hardly ever held a belt between the lot of them, it should be noted that NONE of Roy Jones defense included a single man ranked inside the top ten at 168!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roy then left the 168 division behind having never fought any of the top guys at 168, all of whom were pretty much getting it on with one another.

Here is a list of just some of the guys that Roy managed to NOT fight or DUCK at 168 while fighting that load of trash above;

Nigel Benn (WBC 168 champion for 5 years)

Chris Eubank (WBO longest serving 168 champion, for over 5 years)

Steve Collins (the eventual guy who beat both Benn and Eubank for the 168 world titles and the guy who and rose to the top of the 168 rankings)

Gerald Mclellan (P4P top US fighter who beat Jones in the amateurs, fought Benn in his massive WBC world title fight)

Michael Nunn (powerful and dangerous puncher, who could equally have off nights- 168 WBA champion)

Frankie Liles (beat Jones in the amateurs, who beat Michael Nunn and who held the WBA 168 title for years, top 168 fighter)

I could look at Jones at 160 and also comment that he only has one decent fighter at that weight and talk about all the chumps he fought for a couple of years at that weight as well, given once again he avoided all the fighters I mentioned above, most of whom had stepped up from 160.


As you can see it is an absolute joke to compare the records of Calzaghe and Jones in terms of the quality of opposition!!!

Of course because Roy Jones could no longer continue to stink the house out with fighting utter bums anymore at 168 with the IBF (his pay per view number started to suffer). He decided to leave the 168 division with all those top fighters and belts in it and go and fight in the baron wilderness that was the light heavyweight division.


Why? Did Jones think he had cleared out the 168 division LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S

Looking now at the absolute bottom line, so no one can argue the finner details and miss the bigger picture (hard to do, but I know some of you guys could still manage it haha);

Who did Calzaghe not beat in the 168 division?

Who was left behind who could seriously complain about not getting a shot at the titles?

In fact who was left behind in the division period?

Mmmm LMAO….nobody is who!

He then went and beat the best light heavyweight in Hopkins, just to clear up any doubts on that score.

Now what doubts have been left behind with Roy Jones? Who can complain about him having not fought him at 160/168?

That list again Hehe

Nigel Benn (WBC 168 champion for 5 years)

Chris Eubank (WBO longest serving 168 champion, for over 5 years)

Steve Collins (the eventual guy who beat both Benn and Eubank for the 168 world titles and the guy who and rose to the top of the 168 rankings)

Gerald Mclellan (P4P top US fighter who beat Jones in the amateurs, fought Benn in his massive WBC world title fight)

Michael Nunn (powerful and dangerous puncher, who could equally have off nights- 168 WBA champion)

Frankie Liles (beat Jones in the amateurs, who beat Michael Nunn and who held the WBA 168 title for years, top 168 fighter)


P.S

Thankyou and goodnight case won and closed
 

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I have to be honest. Nobody is going to read all of that, Fella. Hector's post was fact-generated for the most part.
 

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Shane that is an opinion that is based on your own selective bias. You are reading and taking from it what you want to, so please don't insult either of us by trying to pretend you are some unbias indivdual trying to steer a common sense middle ground LMAO!!

There is nothing but facts in my posts and a LOT more of them than in that of the original post and my posts asks FAR more pertinent question when looking at the legacy of the respective boxers.

So with all due respect; nice try Haha.
 

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Shane that is an opinion that is based on your own selective bias. You are reading and taking from it what you want to, so please don't insult either of us by trying to pretend you are some unbias indivdual trying to steer a common sense middle ground LMAO!!

There is nothing but facts in my posts and a LOT more of them than in that of the original post and my posts asks FAR more pertinent question when looking at the legacy of the respective boxers.

So with all due respect; nice try Haha.
What bias do I have? I like everything about Calzaghe other than the slapping.
 

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Calzaghe groupies seem to love to compare Calzaghe and Jones. But they always seem to compare things to there benefit. Why not compare there whole careers? Calzaghe main claim to fame is running the 168 division. A division that until the last 2 years was a weak division. Calzaghe pretty much had his way over a bunch of B and C fighters. And one A. Calzaghe finally moved up to Light Heavyweight and got a gift win over 43 year old Bernard Hopkins. Calzaghe was suppose to move up to Light Heavyweight years ago. Why didn't he? Why did he punk out of 2 fights against Glen Johnson? Twice it was signed. And twice Calzaghe pulled out. The Light Heavyweight division was not super great. But surely fights against Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Glen Johnson, Antonio Tarver and Jones himself would mean more than his fights against Evans Ashira, Mario Veit, Kabary Salem and Mger Mkrtchian. All Calzaghe had to do was give up his crap WBO title and move up 7 pounds. Why didn't he?

What Jones did was win titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight. Sure he didn't spend much time at Middleweight and Super Middleweight. But he did at Light Heavyweight. He unified the division. It was not a great division. But it was surely better than the Super Middleweight division Calzaghe was ruling over. Jones than moved up to Heavyweight and captured a title. Yes John Ruiz was far from great. But I ask this. Does anybody really think Calzaghe could of moved up to Heavyweight and beat John Ruiz? I don't. Ruiz would of destroyed him. Calzaghe maybe had a better 168 career. But Jones had the better career overall.
 

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Joe's list of opponents certainly aren't a who's who of the boxing world by any means, but he's handled everyone he's been matched against and never really came close to any blips. He was definitely well protected, but at the same time, the super middleweight division has never been a division with a wealth of great names year after year. It's still a young division at only 24 years of age. Calzaghe faced who was out there for the most part, so it's not fair to hold it against him that his division was sort of weak during his reign. Pavlik has got similar issues today at middleweight. That being said, Roy Jones faced plenty of schmos. For every decent name he registered a win against, there were bookend wins against walking stiffs that he so thoroughly outclassed and could have put away at the drop of a hat, but was content to go the full twelve time after time.
 

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Calzaghe groupies seem to love to compare Calzaghe and Jones. But they always seem to compare things to there benefit. Why not compare there whole careers? Calzaghe main claim to fame is running the 168 division. A division that until the last 2 years was a weak division. Calzaghe pretty much had his way over a bunch of B and C fighters. And one A. Calzaghe finally moved up to Light Heavyweight and got a gift win over 43 year old Bernard Hopkins. Calzaghe was suppose to move up to Light Heavyweight years ago. Why didn't he? Why did he punk out of 2 fights against Glen Johnson? Twice it was signed. And twice Calzaghe pulled out. The Light Heavyweight division was not super great. But surely fights against Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Glen Johnson, Antonio Tarver and Jones himself would mean more than his fights against Evans Ashira, Mario Veit, Kabary Salem and Mger Mkrtchian. All Calzaghe had to do was give up his crap WBO title and move up 7 pounds. Why didn't he?

What Jones did was win titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight. Sure he didn't spend much time at Middleweight and Super Middleweight. But he did at Light Heavyweight. He unified the division. It was not a great division. But it was surely better than the Super Middleweight division Calzaghe was ruling over. Jones than moved up to Heavyweight and captured a title. Yes John Ruiz was far from great. But I ask this. Does anybody really think Calzaghe could of moved up to Heavyweight and beat John Ruiz? I don't. Ruiz would of destroyed him. Calzaghe maybe had a better 168 career. But Jones had the better career overall.

I agree with all of this, except for the gift decision against Bhop. I thought deservedly won a close decision and it was earned. Other than that though, pretty much spot on
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Appeal: case reopened
You act like I’m hiding the thread and I put it somewhere secretive that you had to dig through to find :laugh:. What do you think you’re like some type of post monster or something :laugh: aint nobody afraid of you. You’ve never posted directly at me from what I’ve read and + I felt like making a thread on the hipocresy based on facts and research.
On to your post: I didn’t say Eubank was shot just because he lost Collins the fight before, but because he didn’t win after Calzaghe either, so your rubbish comment was, well rubbish, and I say over rated because I seen a couple of spots where its been said he’s legend status, which he is not, since he only held the WBO strap (the same belt Calz held while making these jokes of defenses).
Robin Reid was more than a respectable contender (I’ll give you that much), but he was a champion until he met a guy that Jones Jr. knocked out in 6 a couple years before, and after losing to Calzaghe in his very next fight he lost to Silvio Branco. I actually did watch the fight, matter of fact I have fight, you want a copy?
Richie Woodhall was pretty good he had also gotten ko’ed by Keith Holmes a Hopkins victim. So he had nowhere to go after Calzaghe someone should have told him about light heavyweight, he was real dedicated to boxing. You mention Woodhall being a bronze medalist and Reid winning silver, so what, Ricardo Williams was too and Abdulaev gold, it means you were a great amateur it doesn’t translate to the pro ranks.
Brewer got ko’ed in 3 by Echols (another Hopkins victim) the fight before. This is really clever matchmaking by FW, Calz should be thanking him.

“I could go through the rest of your list but I don’t see the point as it is arguing on your grounds and I feel I have done that enough and I feel I have quoted you enough.”
:laugh:This **** had me rolling, when someone named calzaghefella can only pick out 3 out of 16 consecutive defenses, you know you got em. Jones Jr. was was nothin special under 168, he just collected 2 alphabet titles and decisively beat 2 future hall of famers in their physical primes, 1 who is the best middleweight in the last 20 years, and a guy who went on to be the man at Cruiser and be a top contender at the end of his career at heavy(nothing big). You forgot about the 7 titles he collected at 175 and all the time being #1 P4P and winning a title at heavyweight.
Excuse me while I **** on your post
 

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Appeal: case reopened
You act like I’m hiding the thread and I put it somewhere secretive that you had to dig through to find :laugh:. What do you think you’re like some type of post monster or something :laugh: aint nobody afraid of you. You’ve never posted directly at me from what I’ve read and + I felt like making a thread on the hipocresy based on facts and research.
On to your post: I didn’t say Eubank was shot just because he lost Collins the fight before, but because he didn’t win after Calzaghe either, so your rubbish comment was, well rubbish, and I say over rated because I seen a couple of spots where its been said he’s legend status, which he is not, since he only held the WBO strap (the same belt Calz held while making these jokes of defenses).
Robin Reid was more than a respectable contender (I’ll give you that much), but he was a champion until he met a guy that Jones Jr. knocked out in 6 a couple years before, and after losing to Calzaghe in his very next fight he lost to Silvio Branco. I actually did watch the fight, matter of fact I have fight, you want a copy?
Richie Woodhall was pretty good he had also gotten ko’ed by Keith Holmes a Hopkins victim. So he had nowhere to go after Calzaghe someone should have told him about light heavyweight, he was real dedicated to boxing. You mention Woodhall being a bronze medalist and Reid winning silver, so what, Ricardo Williams was too and Abdulaev gold, it means you were a great amateur it doesn’t translate to the pro ranks.
Brewer got ko’ed in 3 by Echols (another Hopkins victim) the fight before. This is really clever matchmaking by FW, Calz should be thanking him.

“I could go through the rest of your list but I don’t see the point as it is arguing on your grounds and I feel I have done that enough and I feel I have quoted you enough.”
:laugh:This **** had me rolling, when someone named calzaghefella can only pick out 3 out of 16 consecutive defenses, you know you got em. Jones Jr. was was nothin special under 168, he just collected 2 alphabet titles and decisively beat 2 future hall of famers in their physical primes, 1 who is the best middleweight in the last 20 years, and a guy who went on to be the man at Cruiser and be a top contender at the end of his career at heavy(nothing big). You forgot about the 7 titles he collected at 175 and all the time being #1 P4P and winning a title at heavyweight.
Excuse me while I **** on your post
:laugh:

you make some good points, man! can't wait for fella' rebuttal/novel
 
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I recall DRPUG calling me a hater and my thread a joke for asking how people scored Mayweathger-Castillo I. How the tables have turned. :laugh: I'm a big fan of both even though Jones fought ALOT more bums and ducked ALOT more people. It's a well known fact that Joe wished he'd fought in America earlier to silence the doubters. He wanted a fight with Jones years ago but surprise, surprise...Jones avoided him like the plague.

If he was born in the USA I'm 100% convinced that the majority of people here would be obsessed with how good Joe is. The vast majority of Americans were going on about how Lacy was going to destroy Joe, then turned it around on Joe by saying Lacy was made for him. Then of course Kessler, an excellent fighter, isn't from that side of the Atlantic so he's brushed off as an easy win. Hopkins only lost to one guy in his previous 30 fights going into the Calzaghe fight after beating Tarver and Winky was of course a formality. :rolleyes: I can't wait to hear the excuses come out of the woodwork when Joe dismantles Pavlik.
 

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What irritates me a lot with this post DRPUGILIST is that I have given you opportunity after opportunity for to you to present a case in thread after thread where I have presented the facts against Jones's record, specifically where I have stated the case for Calzaghe in a head to head view with Jones, but you didn't accept that gauntlet on any occasion did you?

Then you slip off here and post a semantical and bias representation of the argument in a setting where I wasn't present.

If this case of your above is so good ands water tight why didn't you ever present it at the time hey?

I mean you have had ample number of threads to face me on this haven't you?

Never mind let's look at the problems with your very selective use of the facts.


First of all you say that Chris Eubank must have been shot because he lost the fight prior to Steve Collins.

May I remind you that in beating Chris Eubank Collins had followed up his victories against Nigel Benn and in doing so had become the best 168 fighter on the planet and the fighter that Roy Jones ran away from for over three years!!!

Steve Collins fought the best and is one of the best 168 fighters of all time.

So Eubank was shot according to you on the basis that he lost to one of the best 168o fighters ever?

I contend that this is rubbish.

As for not rating Chris Eubank too much, I should remind you that Eubank was one of the longest serving 168 world champions of all time, world champion for 5 years consecutively.

Chris Eubank took on the best fighters of the decade at 160 and at 168 in a host of unification bouts something that only Roy Jones avoided, having of course avoided every single fighter of note at 160 at 168 in his career.

So your contention that Eubank was shot is rubbish and your contention that one of the best 168 fighters of all time was not that good is also rubbish. On which note Chris Eubank was another fighter that Roy Jones managed to avoid/duck his whole career.

You mention Robin Reid and say that he was quote a “respectable contender that had lost the fight before to Thulani Malinga”.

First of all I have to correct you in that Robin Reid was NOT a respectable contender, but in fact a fighter who is just outside the top ten best 168 fighters of all time.

Not only did Robin Reid fight a prime Calzaghe to a split decision, giving Calzaghe a tougher fight than Bernard Hopkins gave him (the latter fight’s score was only in doubt due to its location, it would never have been a split decision outside of the US); Robin Reid also was a former WBC 168 world champion, by knocking out a Vincenzo Nardiello away in Italy in 4 rounds he also lost controversially to the unbeaten (another one of the best guys ever at 168) Sven Ottke, where if it wasn’t for terrible refereeing he would have won another two 168 world titles.

So then Robin Reid was a former WBC 168 world champion, he was controversially reffed and givena poor verdict against Ottke for another two world champion belts at 168 and he was only split decisioned by a prime Calzaghe.

Added to which Robin Reid was never K.O’d until he was well past his prime and he was also a former bronze medal Olympic boxer.

Your statement then is rubbish.

Robin Reid was NOT a respectable contender but a fantastic/top contender and a big fight of Calzaghe’s career.

You have tried to take the shine off this fact by pointing to the fact that Reid had dropped a decision to Malinga. But anyone who looks through Malinga’s career knows that he was very, very inconsistent and fought fantastically tough and fantastically weakly and poor almost in alternate fights, hence Malinga’s up and down record against many contenders, winning one fight and losing the next to many guys.

To try and lesson what Calzaghe did in beating Reid is to ignore the majority of Reid’s career, it is to ignore the fight itself where Reid fought brilliantly, it is to ignore the caliber of the guy generally and if you are going off such singular facts we could all look at the caliber of the guys that Hopkins lost to early in his career and say- ergo Hopkins isn’t any good, but that would be rubbish….much like your statement on Robin Reid.

Did you even watch the fight?

Mmm

Next Richie Woodhall.

You have tried to lesson what the caliber of Woodhall just as you did Reid by ignoring the majority of the facts.

Richie Woodhall again was a former 168 WBC world Champion and former olypic bronze medal boxer.

His career was

26 wins (16 via K.O) with just three losses.

You mention that he lost to Markus Beyer, to which I say so what, Marcus has been a top fighter at 168.

So all you have against Woodhall is the fact that he was beaten 3 times in his careera as a former world champion at this weight and that two of his three loses have come against a P4P great and a top, top 168 fighter in Marcus Beyer.

So I say to you that Woodhall was once again a top fighter and serious contender for Calzaghe, but I am guessing because he is not American, like Marcus, Robind Reid, Eubank etc you don’t rate him LMAO!!!!!

Do you rate anything that is further away than the shores of the US?

The fact of the matter is Woodhall as good as he was, was retired by the combination of Marcus and Calzaghe; Richie obviously felt he had nowhere to go hence the retirement.

You mention Charles Brewer.

I personally did not rate Brewer, but the fact of the matter is, he was a standard/average contender/ opponent for world titles at 168 at this time.

This is shown by the fact that Brewer was a former IBF world champion at 168 having beaten the even crapper Antonine Byrd who Jones fought in defense of his IBF 168 strap. The fact that he was not a piss taking defense, but one of those standard defenses, of guys that don’t quite make it but get to the top of contender lists, I point to the fact that he fought Sven Ottke (unbeaten multiple world champion) twice to split decision losses.

So no- Brewer wasn’t that good, but he got his shot at Calzaghe because he was one of those guys who beat enough people to get his shots against multiple belt holders, not just Calzaghe and in doing so won a 168 belt at one point, something Byrd who Jones fought in a title defense never did!!

I could go through the rest of your list but I don’t see the point as it is arguing on your grounds and I feel I have done that enough and I feel I have quoted you enough.

Let’s look at the bigger picture.

I notice that your take on Calzaghe’s record leaves out his defenses against Kessler and Lacy LMAO!!!!!

Oops

And Hopkins.

Pissing myself laughing!!!

So looking at the bigger picture and not trying to dispute the little details the picture as I see it is this;

Calzaghe fought big defenses in;

Eubank (one of the best ever at 168, former world champion and one of the longest ever serving 168 world champions who fought all the best at 168)

Robin Reid (just outside the top ten ever at 168 and former WBC 168 world champion)

Richie Woodhall (former WBC 168 world champion)

Jeff Lacy (unbeaten 168 world champion, unification fight, big knockout specialist and highly rated)

Mikkel Kessler (multiple world title holder with big K.O record and unbeaten big unification bout to clear up the division)

Bernard Hopkins (stepping up to fight away in the US in world title fight with no warm up fight against a guy who had long since put big loses behind him)


Now Roy Jones in comparison fought these in defense of his IBF 168 strap

Antoine Byrd (never won a world title, no mark, lost to Brewer in world title fight)

Vinny Pazienza (blown-up lightweight)

Tony Thornton (a postman)

Merqui Sosa (who? Oh yea he never won any world title, lost prior attempt by UD to Michael Nunn, lost in a third attempt at a world title as well)

Eric Lucas (who? He lost two attempts at world title shots and then won a vacated belt and held a few times until Marcus Beyer beat him)

Bryant Brannon (who? Precisely another complete no mark, never got another world title shot against anyone).

Every single one of the above was a Roy Jones IBF 168 world title defense.

And get this, he did not fight anyone else ever, these are all of Roy jones’s defenses at 168!!!

The only person of any note Roy Jones ever beat at 168 was James Toney to win the belt in the first place!

Looking back at the two years that Roy spent beating up of utter trash, that hardly ever held a belt between the lot of them, it should be noted that NONE of Roy Jones defense included a single man ranked inside the top ten at 168!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roy then left the 168 division behind having never fought any of the top guys at 168, all of whom were pretty much getting it on with one another.

Here is a list of just some of the guys that Roy managed to NOT fight or DUCK at 168 while fighting that load of trash above;

Nigel Benn (WBC 168 champion for 5 years)

Chris Eubank (WBO longest serving 168 champion, for over 5 years)

Steve Collins (the eventual guy who beat both Benn and Eubank for the 168 world titles and the guy who and rose to the top of the 168 rankings)

Gerald Mclellan (P4P top US fighter who beat Jones in the amateurs, fought Benn in his massive WBC world title fight)

Michael Nunn (powerful and dangerous puncher, who could equally have off nights- 168 WBA champion)

Frankie Liles (beat Jones in the amateurs, who beat Michael Nunn and who held the WBA 168 title for years, top 168 fighter)

I could look at Jones at 160 and also comment that he only has one decent fighter at that weight and talk about all the chumps he fought for a couple of years at that weight as well, given once again he avoided all the fighters I mentioned above, most of whom had stepped up from 160.


As you can see it is an absolute joke to compare the records of Calzaghe and Jones in terms of the quality of opposition!!!

Of course because Roy Jones could no longer continue to stink the house out with fighting utter bums anymore at 168 with the IBF (his pay per view number started to suffer). He decided to leave the 168 division with all those top fighters and belts in it and go and fight in the baron wilderness that was the light heavyweight division.


Why? Did Jones think he had cleared out the 168 division LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S

Looking now at the absolute bottom line, so no one can argue the finner details and miss the bigger picture (hard to do, but I know some of you guys could still manage it haha);

Who did Calzaghe not beat in the 168 division?

Who was left behind who could seriously complain about not getting a shot at the titles?

In fact who was left behind in the division period?

Mmmm LMAO….nobody is who!

He then went and beat the best light heavyweight in Hopkins, just to clear up any doubts on that score.

Now what doubts have been left behind with Roy Jones? Who can complain about him having not fought him at 160/168?

That list again Hehe

Nigel Benn (WBC 168 champion for 5 years)

Chris Eubank (WBO longest serving 168 champion, for over 5 years)

Steve Collins (the eventual guy who beat both Benn and Eubank for the 168 world titles and the guy who and rose to the top of the 168 rankings)

Gerald Mclellan (P4P top US fighter who beat Jones in the amateurs, fought Benn in his massive WBC world title fight)

Michael Nunn (powerful and dangerous puncher, who could equally have off nights- 168 WBA champion)

Frankie Liles (beat Jones in the amateurs, who beat Michael Nunn and who held the WBA 168 title for years, top 168 fighter)


P.S

Thankyou and goodnight case won and closed
great post, completely turned drpugilists points on there head and smashed it back into his court

I have to be honest. Nobody is going to read all of that, Fella. Hector's post was fact-generated for the most part.
i read every single word of it, it was a great arguement and completely turned drpugilists whole thread upside down. end of discussion.
 

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Calzaghefella great post and you pretty much owen Drpuglist but when you say Jones ducked Mcclellan at 168 that makes no sense, Geralds first fight at 168 was his last so you cant really say he ducked him since he never had a chance to face him.

But you absaloutly right about Calzaghe facing better fighters at 168 tho thats for sure. The only thing Jones has over Calzaghes career imo is his trip to the HW division that was indeed a remarkable accomplishment
 
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