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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just what style was he best against?

What styles gave him trouble?

Could he take on various styles, to a point?

It's curious to look at this as Clay could take on all comers, could take a punch, but was he really the "Greatest" against all styles at HW?
 

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I think what made him great was he could adjust to any style he fought. He was truly a smart fighter and i think he always had a gameplan or something to get him out of trouble.
 

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When I try to rate different boxers, one of the things I do is to look and see how they did against different type of boxers. The Sluggers, the Boxers, the Defensive Boxers the Aggressive Boxers, etc. Ali fought in the Greatest era as far as Heavyweights go and he handled almost all of them better then anyone else could ever do.

Sure he had trouble with some, BUT he always came up with something. You might say, how about Frazier in their 1st bout. Well Ali was out of boxing for over 3-1/2 years and had only 2 so called warm-up bouts before he fought Frazier. He really didn't do too bad, as most boxing people had Ali winning 6 or 7 rounds. Sugar Ray Robinson was out for 2-1/2 years then had 1 warm-up bout and fought Ralph Tiger Jones, who lost his last 5 bouts in a row, for another warm-up bout, BUT Jones won just about every round. So if you say that Frazier was better then Ali, then you must also say that Jones was better then Robinson.

Their has been no perfect boxer, even Robinson had his short comings like I just stated, BUT when your rating the Heavyweights, no one fought and beat so many different kind of boxers then Ali did.
 

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Theres a few that troubled him. One, if you didn't mind getting hit to give a hit, it made his speed less of a factor because he didn't have a lot of power. If you forced the fight while getting hit, and forcing it more into a brawl, and stayed right there in his face no matter what, he was troubled. And, if you jabbed back at him, it off set his rythem a little. Other than that, he pretty much looked pretty good against any style.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
hhascup said:
When I try to rate different boxers, one of the things I do is to look and see how they did against different type of boxers. The Sluggers, the Boxers, the Defensive Boxers the Aggressive Boxers, etc. Ali fought in the Greatest era as far as Heavyweights go and he handled almost all of them better then anyone else could ever do.

Sure he had trouble with some, BUT he always came up with something. You might say, how about Frazier in their 1st bout. Well Ali was out of boxing for over 3-1/2 years and had only 2 so called warm-up bouts before he fought Frazier. He really didn't do too bad, as most boxing people had Ali winning 6 or 7 rounds. Sugar Ray Robinson was out for 2-1/2 years then had 1 warm-up bout and fought Ralph Tiger Jones, who lost his last 5 bouts in a row, for another warm-up bout, BUT Jones won just about every round. So if you say that Frazier was better then Ali, then you must also say that Jones was better then Robinson.

Their has been no perfect boxer, even Robinson had his short comings like I just stated, BUT when your rating the Heavyweights, no one fought and beat so many different kind of boxers then Ali did.
Good comparison between two all time greats, Henry.

I'll agree with your point in the last paragraph as well. Clay did well against multiple styles.. that may just be the main thing that sets him apart from others - that and always believing he was the best before ever stepping into the ring.
 

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bill1234 said:
Theres a few that troubled him. One, if you didn't mind getting hit to give a hit, it made his speed less of a factor because he didn't have a lot of power. If you forced the fight while getting hit, and forcing it more into a brawl, and stayed right there in his face no matter what, he was troubled. And, if you jabbed back at him, it off set his rythem a little. Other than that, he pretty much looked pretty good against any style.
sonny liston had one hell of a jab and ali just puzzled him. :p
 

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TommyGunn said:
sonny liston had one hell of a jab and ali just puzzled him. :p
LOL. Dives. Liston got a mysterious phone call and was told to take a dive...or else. He was very active in the mob world. The 2nd Liston fight is a known dive though.
 

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Bill, liston never said he took a dive people assume he took a dive cause the punch didnt look like much. If you think the first fight was a dive you need to rewatch it.
 

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Brutus said:
Bill, liston never said he took a dive people assume he took a dive cause the punch didnt look like much. If you think the first fight was a dive you need to rewatch it.
Liston said the rematch was, but I have my suspicions about the first fight, and even if he didn't take a dive in that one, then his screwed up shoulder didn't help it.
 

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Pfff honestly would it matter? Ali would beat him without injuries or mob or whatever, he was simply better in every way exepct power, and at that time that didnt really matter cause Ali was so ******* fast and he had a amazing chin.
 

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Ali couldn't slug better than Liston. He wasn't as strong as Liston. He wasn't as mean as Liston. He didn't have as good of a uppercut, right cross/right straight/over hand right, or left hook than Liston. He didn't have as good body shots as Liston. Liston did plenty better than Ali.
 

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All i can say is that i dont think that Liston could have beaten Ali or Clay at the time. I honestly think at that time Ali was the closest to unbeateble that you can get he was just so, well he was like huge MW,but Liston should def be on all people top 20 hw of all time but i think Ali was too good for him.
 

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Brutus said:
I disagree with that, and i think alot of people do, just go to our threat about top 10 hw of all time, hes no mentioned in half of them.
Here's some that rated him:

Don Sibrel
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Liston
4.Foreman
5.Tyson
6.Tunney
7.Dempsey
8.Johnson
9.Marciano
10.Frazier
11.Holmes
12.Jeffries
13.Walcott
14.Corbett
15.Patterson
16.Charles
17.Schmeling
18.Holyfield

James Slater

1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.

2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.

3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.

4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.

5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.

6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.

7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.

8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.

9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.

10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson. Finally, earns points for becoming the only four time heavyweight champ (although only twice in linear terms).

Monte D. Cox's Corner All Time Heavyweight Ratings
THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
11. Rocky Marciano
12. Joe Frazier
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Evander Holyfield
15. Sam Langford
16. Gene Tunney
17. James J. Corbett
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Johnson
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Joe Frazier
7.Gene Tunney
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Sonny Liston
10.Ezzard Charles

Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jack Johnson
6.Gene Tunney
7.Joe Frazier
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Sonny Liston

Bert Sugar, 1991
1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston

Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston

Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier

Herbert Goldman, 1987

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Sonny Liston
3.Larry Holmes
4.Jack Johnson
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Joe Louis
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Harry Wills
9.George Foreman
10.Joe Frazier
11.Mike Tyson

IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier

Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes

Jimmy Glenn
1- Joe Louis. (Jack Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano, 'Jersery' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey and Floyd Patterson).

Angelo Dundee
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Demspey, Max Schmelling and Jim Braddock).

Buddy McGirt
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, 'Jersey' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Evander Holyfield).

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Joe Louis, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- George Foreman, 5- Lennox Lewis, 6- Gene Tunney, 7- Jack Johnson, 8- Rocky Marciano, 9- Sonny Liston, 10- Mike Tyson.

Ring Magazine's list of the 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years
2002
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio César Chávez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. **** Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones, Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gómez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar de la Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson

Jimmy Gloves
1. Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Holmes
4. Joe Louis
5. Jim Jeffries
6. Tyson
7. Bowe
8. Frazier
9. Langford
10. Liston

Bear in mind I am looking at fighters in their peak. So for example, my list goes as …

At his peak Ali would have beaten any fighter.

Johnston at his peak would have beaten any on them except Ali who had too much mobility and would have psyched him out before a glove was thrown.

Tyson at his peak would have beaten Bowe, Frasier, langford and Liston but not the Jeffries, Louis, Holmes and Johnston.

Incidentally, Demspey is not on the list because he drew the race line and refused to fight Sam Langford who he knew was the best heavyweight and but for racism would have been champion.
 

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Hehe yeah im not denying Liston was good but im saying that there are alot of people that would not rate him in the top 10 including me, but the point i was trying to make was that i believe Ali would have beaten him even if he didnt have the mob after him or whatever or this shoulder injury.
 
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