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The Maul Brawling Slugger
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm 21... am a little bit over 5'9"... weigh 187lbs. and my best ever max bench press if 264lbs. I hope to make it a hell of a lot bigger in a couple of months. I've been taking weight training seriously ever since I was 19. I could hardly bench press 88 lbs. when I began but have built myself up. To most people... my build and stature doesn't look too intimidating. I just look like I'm kind of flabby with slightly broad shoulders and fat around my face, arms and gut. I'm going to get rid of it... get more toned, defined, solid and a hell of a lot more stocky then I already am. I just want to know... an honest opinion. Some of you may know that I wish I took up boxing from a young age... had many amateur bouts throughout my teens... win some competitions and Junior Amateur Championships (something like that), make the 2004 Olympic Boxing Team, win a Gold Medal, turn Pro later that year at the age of 19 and go on form there!!! However... I didn't do that... AND I'M OBSESSED WITH BOXING! But anyways... from what you read before the text became bold I just wanna know...

  1. Am I pretty damn strong for my age... or do most future boxers/powerlifters start early and I'm simply too late... and am actually pretty weak?
  2. Can I still achieve my dreams of becoming a powerlifting champion and becoming a Pro Boxer before the end of the year 2008?

Of course... both are kind of different... you don't need to be really strong and built like a tank to be Pro Boxer... LOOK AT THOMAS "HIT MAN" HEARNS... the toughest lanky man who ever lived!!! But anyways... just give me your honest opinion on my strength, what I could've done in earlier years and where I can possibly go from here.:D
 

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White Tyson said:
But anyways... just give me your honest opinion on my strength, what I could've done in earlier years and where I can possibly go from here.
First off your too old in getting started in boxing, but that's okay, secondly, forget about lifting weights if your wanting to be a fighter.
 

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Boxing and powerlifting are two very different disciplines. Depending on what you want to accomplish in either sport from this point forward in your life will determine the best path forward for you.

Sit down and think about what you want to achieve in boxing.
Write it down.

Sit down and think about what you want to achieve in powerlifting. Write it down.

Find someone who has done both. My former JuJitsu instructor did both. He had some very interesting ideas when it came to training, and results were always positive for those he counselled.

Once you are done writing it down, take it to a trainer, one in each discipline, and see what they say about the goals you want to achieve from a fitness/ability point of view.

Be specific when you write things down. If you find yourself generalizing, think about the way(s) that you would achieve a specific "general" accomplishment, and then include some of those details. This is similar to drawing a map, only with your sport-specific goals. It will help you analyze your current methods, and see if there are any conflicts, or any room for improvement, or changes that need to be made to achieve a set goal.

Powerlifters (generally) become strong through the practice of brief, explosive movements within the boundaries of strict technique. Does that sound familiar to you? Sounds a lot like boxing, to me. I wouldn't reccomend bulking up with an extra 40lbs...it will impact your boxing ability for sure.

Try the excercise I suggested (use a pen and paper) and visit some trainers/coaches in each discipline.

That will give you a clear picture regarding these two subjects. I guarantee you can find a happy medium, and many opportunities will arise from your pursuit.
 

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The Maul Brawling Slugger
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I forgot to mention... The Powerlifting class that I want to be very successful in through the whole of next year is...

Age 20-23 Bracket (I'm 21)

You... the competitor... has to weigh... 165lbs-181.5lbs

That's the group I wanna be in... so as a boxer... I would strongly prefer to be a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT...

Just thought I might clear up a thing or two...

and somebody said that I was too old to take up boxing:mad:
 

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White Tyson said:
and somebody said that I was too old to take up boxing:mad:
Put that comment into context, and re-read some of the posts on this forum, from the author of that comment.

You are 21, trust me, you are young enough. I boxed when my Judo career was over, at 24. Never fought as a pro, but could have easily got licenced.
 

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Hey, White Tyson, maybe you had better listen to the judo guy. I'm sure you knows by far more about boxing than I do.
 

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Mental Midget
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There are many boxers who started late and went on to have nice careers as a pro. Your not too old to start boxing if thats what you want to do, but you need to be disciplined and work hard. Most trainers WILL tell you to forget about the weight lifting, at least at the rate your doing it. The muscle groups your working while training in the boxing gym are a little different than in the weight room. Some lifting, I think, is okay. But the lifting I would recommend is NOT power lifting, but lifting in fast explosive movements with low weight(plyometrics training)
 

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In simplistic terms there are seven kinds of exercise that a person can do:

1. Slow rhythemic movement exercise

2. Stretching

3. Resistence exercise

4. Postures

5. Aerobic exercise

6. Anaerobic exercise

7. Cellular exercise

But for this only for reasons that I think it will more relate to what is being addressed in this dicussion I'm only going to talk now about the fourth form of exercise in which I just listed above.

What is a resistance exercise?

This includes any form of movement where resistance is put against a muscle, and the muscle is required to push or pull against a resistance.

The most common form of resistance exercise today is lifting weights or use of resistence machines. This is an unnatural form of exercise. Chimpanzees, as an example, are eight times stronger than a man, yet do not lift weights.

Weight training can increase the size and strength of muscles, reshaping your body and making you look great, however. I would not recommend weight training for a fighter for the following reasons:

1. Weight training generally only works with muscles that are seen that have no aesthetic value.

2. Weight training also does not address the strength of ligaments and tendons. This can create an inbalance, where some muscles, ligaments and tendons are weak and disproportionate in size.

3. Weight training does not increase flexibility, thus hindering the flow of energy through the body.

4. Weight training can make you musclebound and that's no good for a boxer, and that will make him slow and the more musclebound a boxer is all the faster will he lose oxygen to his muscles and when that happens he's toast. If you don't have the stamina, your going to get your butt whooped.

This in all is why I'm not an advocate of lifting weights for boxers.

I boxed amatuer in the late l960's and the early 1970's first as an middleweight and moved up from the novice class later and fought open-class as middleweight and later as a Light-heavyweight and I loved it. I guess only just because I was good at it. Only reason I say that is because unless a guy is good at it he usually won't stay very long he may then go take up some other sport that he may be better it if he's very athletic and likes sports.

Back when I was boxing we didn't train with weights.

In fact, back in those days I had even seen trainers take guys off working out on the heavy bag for a while if they thought they were working out on the heavyweight bag too much and they thought they were getting too musclebound from reasons of it.

There weren't any trainers that I ever knew of back in those days that were advocates of lifting weights for boxers.

Of course, today we apparently got some trainers in boxing that do advocate lifting weights for boxers.

Maybe some of you may think the trainers today are better than the trainers back in my day in the 1960s and 1970s and even before that ... maybe you think they are smarter and wiser and know more about how to train fighters today than the trainers of yesterday.

Maybe some may think that ... but when I look at boxing today, I just simply don't see it. There is so little exciting action even in the big fights today and by far more mediocre fighters and performances.

But as for most of you guys here your just youngsters you weren't even born .. you just read or hear about how it was back in those days, so how would you know? I'm just an old guy I don't know nothing, right? (smiling)
 

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White Tyson said:
Just thought I might clear up a thing or two...

and somebody said that I was too old to take up boxing:mad:

I don't mean that your too old to take up boxing, at least not in the way you seen to have taken what I said.

What I meant was that its better if a guy starts at a much younger age than you are now is all.

Why do I say that?

Because there's so much to know, so much to learn and the younger you get started the better. (smiling)

Someone has said that in boxing you get old too quick and smart too late.

All I was saying is the younger the better to get started in boxing.

I say that because boxing is a sport that you can't last as long in as in other sports. You become an old guy quicker in boxing than in most any other sports.

I have a 20 years old nephew who has just recently taken up boxing. I encourage him I think boxing is good for youngsters. Boxing can toughen you in body and mind, and its a physical fitness and confidence builder.

I encourage you to take up boxing, what I said was not intended to discourage you to not take up boxing.
 

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The Maul Brawling Slugger
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks everybody... I really do wish I took up boxing at the age of 12 or something like that... but if I get my goals straight (EVENTUALLY)... who knows what happens:cool:
 

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White Tyson said:
Thanks everybody... I really do wish I took up boxing at the age of 12 or something like that... but if I get my goals straight (EVENTUALLY)... who knows what happens:cool:
Better when taken up in early teens.

But hey, look at what Rocky Marciano accomplished. He got started late like you around your age.

Good luck to you!
 

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JCC said:
Hey, White Tyson, maybe you had better listen to the judo guy. I'm sure you knows by far more about boxing than I do.
Interesting, JCC, that when I suggested to White Tyson that he put your comment into context, you took offence, and took a stab at me for being a "judo guy". ???

Then a few posts later, you feel the need to qualify your words and put them into context, and in essence, re-state your whole opinion. Maybe you should have said what you meant to begin with.

White Tyson interpreted your comment as "you're too old, don't bother trying, it's too late."

Things change. You alluded to that in your follow-up posts. Some training methods have been rebuked as times go on, others maintain their integrity as sound discipline(s).

I'll thank you to read my posts more carefully in the future: (and I quote)

Boxing and powerlifting are two very different disciplines. Depending on what you want to accomplish in either sport... and ...done writing it down, take it to a trainer, one in each discipline, and see what they say about the goals you want to achieve.....

However, I digress, I don't recall giving out Judo training advice, so I'm not sure why you took a shot at me, as though I were undermining something you said.

If you are that disappointed with today's boxing (training methods, trainers, fighers, fight calibre) compared to "your day" maybe you need to re-evaluate the amount of time you devote to it. Coming in here and telling some young kid that he's too old seems a bit cynical.

On another note, you said:
1. Weight training generally only works with muscles that are seen that have no aesthetic value.

This quote doesn't make much sense...can you tell me what it is you are trying to say? Aesthetic means pertaining to a sense of the beautiful or concerned with pure emotion and sensation as opposed to pure intellectuality. Assuming you are generalizing, I can grudgingly agree to some of the other statements you made about weightlifting (although I would say that you are just about dead wrong on the flexibility thing), however, the above statement doesn't make much sense at all.
 

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Jetcar said:
... you said:
Weight training generally only works with muscles that are seen that have no aesthetic value.

This quote doesn't make much sense...can you tell me what it is you are trying to say? Aesthetic means pertaining to a sense of the beautiful or concerned with pure emotion and sensation as opposed to pure intellectuality. Assuming you are generalizing, I can grudgingly agree to some of the other statements you made about weightlifting (although I would say that you are just about dead wrong on the flexibility thing), however, the above statement doesn't make much sense at all.
I am not an advocate of lifting weights for boxers because lifting weights can make a boxer slow, and musclebound.

If a boxer is musclebound, he's going to be slow, also his muscles are going to lose oxgyen faster and that will cause him to tire more easily he will lack stamina.

Boxers today do not have boxers bodies any more, and the reasons they do not is because some lift weights, also its due to lack of training discipline.

Boxers of today do not have the training discipline they use to have. The heavyweights, for example today their weight will vary on the average of 20-40 pounds in between fights where as it use to be only 6-8 pounds between fights, and that's due to a lack of training discipline.

I'm not talking about a bar fight here, those kind of fights only usually last no more than a minute, it doesn't usually require much stamina for that, forget about the boxing just go out there and punch the guy.

What I'm talking about is the sport of boxing with boxing rules and about getting out there and putting the gloves on and taking it up with somebody in the ring, and that takes much more stamina and conditioning.

Lifting weights is an unnatural form of exercise and another reason that I'm not an advocate of lifting weights beyond the reasons I listed above for boxers is because genrally lifting weights does not address the strength of ligaments and tendons. This can create an inbalance, where some muscles are strong and abnormally large, and others muscles, ligaments and tendons are weak and disproportionate in size. This is why I said that lifting weights generally only works with the muscles that are seen and DOES NOT ... address the majority of muscles that HAVE NO ... aesthetic value.

Also lifting weights ... will not increase flexibilty --- it actually reduces flexiblity, thus hindering the flow of energy through the body.

Lifting weights also puts pressure on internal ograns of the body and lifting weights over a long period of time can damage internal organs of the body, and can lead to heart trouble as well as do damage to other internal organs.

Usually people who lift weights or train with weights tend to go to progressively heavier weights ... and that can over an extended period of time or over a long period of time lead to damage of internal organs as well as other as forms of physical injuries.

I'm not an advocate of lifting weights, and most especially I'm not an advocate of lifting weights for boxers.
 

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Okay, let me try and respond to this. JCC, I've quoted you in italics...my response is in bold following your comments.

I am not an advocate of lifting weights for boxers because lifting weights can make a boxer slow, and musclebound. If a boxer is musclebound, he's going to be slow, also his muscles are going to lose oxgyen faster and that will cause him to tire more easily he will lack stamina.

Muscles don’t “lose oxygen”…. muscles ask for oxygen, and the body must supply them with oxygen, and as I’m sure you know, it’s the blood that brings the oxygen to the muscles. The only thing that circulates blood throughout the body is the heart…so anaerobic capacity is the only thing limiting an athlete of any shape or size. A muscle-bound athlete may tire quicker due to anaerobic capacity, but it’s not a statement of fact that muscle-bound equals lack of stamina. Holyfield, for example, was always cut like Superman himself, and stamina was rarely an issue despite being much more bulky and muscle-bound than his natural weight (which was Cruiserweight, originally).

Boxers today do not have boxers bodies any more, and the reasons they do not is because some lift weights, also its due to lack of training discipline.

I’ll leave this one alone. I can only imagine that your definition of “boxer’s body” is an anorexic looking marathon runner.

Boxers of today do not have the training discipline they use to have. The heavyweights, for example today their weight will vary on the average of 20-40 pounds in between fights where as it use to be only 6-8 pounds between fights, and that's due to a lack of training discipline.

I have two words for you: Bernard Hopkins

I'm not talking about a bar fight here, those kind of fights only usually last no more than a minute, it doesn't usually require much stamina for that, forget about the boxing just go out there and punch the guy.

No one was talking about bar fights, but thanks for clearing that up.

What I'm talking about is the sport of boxing with boxing rules and about getting out there and putting the gloves on and taking it up with somebody in the ring, and that takes much more stamina and conditioning.

Lifting weights is an unnatural form of exercise and another reason that I'm not an advocate of lifting weights beyond the reasons I listed above for boxers is because genrally lifting weights does not address the strength of ligaments and tendons. This can create an inbalance, where some muscles are strong and abnormally large, and others muscles, ligaments and tendons are weak and disproportionate in size. This is why I said that lifting weights generally only works with the muscles that are seen and DOES NOT ... address the majority of muscles that HAVE NO ... aesthetic value.

Once again, I’ve mentioned that a trainer who sees beyond the “bicep curl” and is actually educated in sports medicine will address those oft-used muscles which actually enhance sports performance, when trained correctly. (compound movements actually stretch and strengthen the ligaments, and reflect a more natural posture that compares to many sports movements) You seem to insist that everyone’s definition of weight training is some barbaric prison-yard workout with cement blocks and the focus is to get “the biggest guns possible to impress the babes”.

Also lifting weights ... will not increase flexibilty --- it actually reduces flexiblity, thus hindering the flow of energy through the body.

Not only does it increase flexibility, it also increases bone density, and depending on the speed/weight at which one works/uses, can target both fast and slow twitch muscle fibres.

Lifting weights also puts pressure on internal ograns of the body and lifting weights over a long period of time can damage internal organs of the body, and can lead to heart trouble as well as do damage to other internal organs.

You must be from the school of, “hold-your-breath-in-when-you-exert-yourself”. Seriously, I’ve never heard any medical or sports therapy professional say that in 20 years. Lead to heart trouble? Damage internal organs…? Are we talking diet here, or physical exercise?

Usually people who lift weights or train with weights tend to go to progressively heavier weights

If this is your assumption, you shouldn’t base your whole point on it….it doesn’t apply to any of the athletes who use weight training as a complement to their physical routines….your view is very narrow, to say the least.

... and that can over an extended period of time or over a long period of time lead to damage of internal organs as well as other as forms of physical injuries.

Please provide a verifiable source for this study, that proves internal organs are damaged through weight training. Oh, and yes, I’m sure boxing doesn’t lead to any form of physical injuries…. I have a clear picture of Oscar Dela Hoya stretched on the canvas and momentarily paralyzed by a punch to the liver, not long ago.

I'm not an advocate of lifting weights, and most especially I'm not an advocate of lifting weights for boxers.


As I’ve said throughout this conversation, there is only a small percentage of top athletes today who don’t use weight-lifting (or training with weights) as part of their physical discipline to improve performance and health.

I’ve also been saying, “try it out, under careful and qualified supervision, and see for yourself”. It’s all part of the journey and part of the learning experience.
 

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Hey, Jetcar. So I won't have to repeat myself. You can take every thing I said in my last post to mean just what I said without trying to read any thing else into it. All that I stated I've found to be true. That is why I'm not an advocate of lifting weights and most especially not for boxers.

As for your mention of Evander Holyfield.

Holyfield has had some health problems and he's had heart trouble.

While Holyfield does have a great looking physique ... only he has not been as healthy as he looks. But supposedly he doing better now and his health has improved.

Some two years ago, in New York, Holyfield's performance was so poor in his last fight there that the New York state athletic commission suspended his boxing license, and the last I'd heard his boxing license is still suspended there.

In Holyfield's most recent and last fight his performance was so poor that the fans booed him.

However, in being the boxing scene is as it is today, and for reasons of the lack of talent today in heavyweights classes. I think Holyfield could win a title in a weak heavyweight division.

I'm not an advocate of lifting weights and especially not for boxers.
 

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Jetcar said:
Oh, and yes, I’m sure boxing doesn’t lead to any form of physical injuries…. I have a clear picture of Oscar Dela Hoya stretched on the canvas and momentarily paralyzed by a punch to the liver, not long ago.
Hey, boxings always been a tough sport and especially in the professional ranks, and especially so the way boxing used to be.

You can't be a wussie if your going to be a fighter.

While the change of rules has really soften amatuer boxing a lot today, but still its a tough sport and especially if your going to fight in the professional ranks.
 

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The Maul Brawling Slugger
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
In his later years when he wasn't as good a boxer... Mike Tyson weighed a lot more and looked a lot more muscular! However... something about him just wasn't right! Like Holyfield... and Bruno... they may be built with all of their weight training... but they're not very healthy... and it means problems in the ring... and with stamina:cool:

So... when it comes to weight lifting AND boxing... be smart about it... be careful... or else there's problems!!!
 

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White Tyson said:
In his later years when he wasn't as good a boxer... Mike Tyson weighed a lot more and looked a lot more muscular! However... something about him just wasn't right! Like Holyfield... and Bruno... they may be built with all of their weight training... but they're not very healthy... and it means problems in the ring... and with stamina:cool:

So... when it comes to weight lifting AND boxing... be smart about it... be careful... or else there's problems!!!
I agree. Only, I think the best way to be careful with it is to just not do it at all.

As for this thing of lifting weights, we got a whole generation today that had been so brain washed to it through advertizing and promotion by manufacturers that profit from it that its has come to be the most common form of exercise today.

You want to know why we got boxers lifting weights today?

That's the reason, plus the fact that we got these so called certified ... they like to call themselves .. so-called certifed boxing trainers today, writing and peddling books and tapes and stuff that don't all really know what they're talking too. Mostly that's just another money making racket is all that is.

Someone as said that "Age dims the eye sight, but let's you see through the B.S. Its a fair trade."

By the way, I also learned the Evander Holyfield is taking or has taken ballet lessons too. I'm not sure why he is or did. Maybe he thought if he did that along with lifting weights it might make him a better fighter I'm not sure.
 

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The Maul Brawling Slugger
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I know that I'm too short to be a Heavyweight... who was shortest heavyweight boxer on record (weighing 201bs. or more)? Who was the greatest ever short heavyweight boxer???
 

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JCC said:
Hey, Jetcar. So I won't have to repeat myself. You can take every thing I said in my last post to mean just what I said without trying to read any thing else into it. All that I stated I've found to be true. That is why I'm not an advocate of lifting weights and most especially not for boxers.

As for your mention of Evander Holyfield.

Holyfield has had some health problems and he's had heart trouble.

While Holyfield does have a great looking physique ... only he has not been as healthy as he looks. But supposedly he doing better now and his health has improved.

Some two years ago, in New York, Holyfield's performance was so poor in his last fight there that the New York state athletic commission suspended his boxing license, and the last I'd heard his boxing license is still suspended there.

In Holyfield's most recent and last fight his performance was so poor that the fans booed him.

However, in being the boxing scene is as it is today, and for reasons of the lack of talent today in heavyweights classes. I think Holyfield could win a title in a weak heavyweight division.

I'm not an advocate of lifting weights and especially not for boxers.
You totally, totally ignored your own statements, JCC, about Holyfield and my comments regarding your original post.

Holyfield looks like a body-builder. He bulked up using weights AFTER his doctors/athletic commissions refused to licence him to box AFTER his doctor confirmed an illness, not an INJURY. Holyfield had a degernative type illness in one of his valves and major arteries, which reversed itself, as these things sometimes do. His doctor has since confirmed this as well. AFTER that whole scenario, he left the lighter weight class, LIFTED A LOT OF WEIGHTS to bulk uo, and his heart (AN INTERNAL ORGAN) has been just fine. So has his stamina.

What you and White Tyson seem to be referring to, is HOLYFIELDS' PERFORMANCE....not his stamina. His stamina is still pretty damn good considering his age and the abuse he's taken.... His reflexes are a joke now, and so is his timing. His fans booed him, because his body is getting too old and slow to do the things he used to do. As far as his health and fitness level is concerned, that guy will probably live forever (I'm exaggerating here, but I hope you know what I mean...)...he just can't cut it in the ring anymore. He's slow, his timing his bad, his reflexes are poor and his footwork is done after two or three rounds.

I'm not trying to read anything into your statements. You did say, however, that you "have found it to be true". What does that mean, then? If you state something that is completely unfounded by anyone or anything (i.e.: weight lifting decreases flexibility) that it is somehow a FACT?!

I know a powerlifter (saw him yesterday actually) who is a member of the Canadian Powerlifting Team (he's hoping to make the Olympics in 08') who weighs 135lbs. He can benchpress 350lbs, squat 550lbs, and deadlift 600lbs. He is definitely not musclebound, and he is extremely flexible. He's very strong, and he's very fast, since explosive-assisted training is part of his routine. (i.e.: sprints, resistance sprints, vertical jump training, etc etc).

Your experience must be limited, then JCC, because your "having found it to be true" statement, must not have had to stand up to much scrutiny, if you still think some of those comments you made hold any water.

There is room for lots of other training methods in today's sporting world, and athletes are not limited to one particular discipline, and are not hindered by cross-training in different disciplines to increase athletic performance. Take Decathletes, for instance....as one of many possible examples...these athletes excel in a variety of different disciplines...sprint, strength, endurance...etc etc. Your philosophy aboutt training would have a decathlete training for the javelin throw by doing wind sprints!!

:dunno:
 
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