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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
How great was it in reality? Ali knocked him out in 8 and Ali was hardly a power puncher.

Some people compare Frazier with Marciano, and conclude that Marciano would have lost to Foreman because Frazier did. The thing they fail to realize is Marciano had a left at least as hard as Frazier's and Rocky's right was even more devastating than his left - something Frazier never had.

Foreman beating Frazier means nothing as far as any Rocky type comparisons are concerned.

Rocky hammered a lot harder than Ali... and there is no doubt in my mind his chin was just as solid as any HW that ever lived.
 

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RoccoMarciano said:
How great was it in reality? Ali knocked him out in 8 and Ali was hardly a power puncher.
That makes sense.

I just want to mention this in passing. I say in just passing only because I don't want to move this thread off topic.

This is also another reason that I have such difficulty believing that Muhhummed Ali then Called Cassius Clay had legitmately won his first fight with Sonny Liston.

I saw that fight live when I was a kid and have watched the tape many times since over the many years I still believe to this day that Liston took a dive.

RoccaMarciano said:
Some people compare Frazier with Marciano, and conclude that Marciano would have lost to Foreman because Frazier did.

The thing they fail to realize is Marciano had a left at least as hard as Frazier's and Rocky's right was even more devastating than his left - something Frazier never had.
I believe your right.

RoccaMarciano said:
Foreman beating Frazier means nothing as far as any Rocky type comparisons are concerned.

Rocky hammered a lot harder than Ali... and there is no doubt in my mind his chin was just as solid as any HW that ever lived.
I saw that Muhummed had the punch he could get the knockout and often did. But usually most often he would get the knockout by a combination of punches. He didn't have the one big punch as others did for example like Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano and George Foreman.

I believe your right about the comparisons not making sense.

But more than only to just believe. I know they don't make sense.

We got some historians today so-called experts that know things. Only when it comes to things like this they don't know much. Many of them are ignorant.

As for thinkers most people aren't thinkers, and most people aren't independent thinkers.

I see you are both.

Your post told me you that you had given this much thought to come to this conclusion.

I like reading posts in which somebody really says something.

I hope to read more of your contributions here.

JC
 

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Foreman's knockout from Ali had nothing to do with power. That was a combination of all the elements coming together at one time. His loss was mostly due to fatigue not power.Watch the foreman- Holyfield fight if you want to check out George's chin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Foreman is a lucky guy it was "huge punching" Holyfield and not Marciano :)

It's also kinda sad when a young fighter tires so drastically after only 7 rounds. Could it have been a Liston fight all over again? :laugh:
 

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RoccoMarciano said:
It's also kinda sad when a young fighter tires so drastically after only 7 rounds. Could it have been a Liston fight all over again?
No, it was a "shoot!" [an expression used by those in boxing that use to be used a lot. We'd say, "No, it was a 'shoot.'" It was a real fight!] (smiling).

JC
 

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The Auctioneer said:
Foreman's knockout from Ali had nothing to do with power. That was a combination of all the elements coming together at one time. His loss was mostly due to fatigue not power.
Your right! Like Mike Tyson, George Forearm even in his prime got tired after 5 or 6 rounds. Like Tyson, George lacked stamina.

But its always been especially hard for the heavyweights to go long rounds.

Its always been much easier for fighter's in the lighter weight divisions to go long rounds than for heavyweights.

Big men aren't built for going long rounds.

A 15 round fight has always be especially hard for the heavyweights. They've always had to pace themselves much more.

auctioneer said:
Watch the Foreman- Holyfield fight if you want to check out George's chin.
I saw the fight, and after you mentioned it. I watched the tape again.

That fight was in 1991, George was really an old guy then past his prime. It was a close fight. Holyfield got the 12 round decision. Foreman lose the fight only by one point.

As for punching power?

Rocky Marciano was a harder puncher than Evander Holyfield.

Thank you for having mentioned the Holyfield-Foreman fight. It made me want to watch that fight again. It was a really good fight.

JC
 

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JCC said:
I saw the fight, and after you mentioned it. I watched the tape again.

That fight was in 1991, George was really an old guy then past his prime. It was a close fight. Holyfield got the 12 round decision. Foreman lose the fight only by one point. JC
JCC, your memory is starting to go. Here's the scores of the Holyfield/Foreman bout.

Judge: Eugene Grant 116-111
Judge: Jerry Roth 117-110
Judge: Tom Kaczmarek 115-112

Two of these Judges I know very well, if fact I was with one of them this past Tuesday night and he just sent me an E-Mail.

As far as Marciano having a left hook as hard as Frazier's, I think anyone that would agree with that doesn't know what there talking about.

Frazier had one of the GREATEST left hooks in the history of boxing, anybody that knows anything about boxing would agree to that. They also would agree that Rocky had one of the best RIGHT hands in boxing history, BUT his left was no where near as good as Frazier's.

In a bout against Foreman, it would be all wrong for Rocky. BIG George would walk right through him. I do believe that Rocky would beat some boxers that Foreman wouldn't, BUT head to head, it's all George. Style make fights, and this would be all wrong for Rocky.
 

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hhascup said:
JCC, your memory is starting to go. Here's the scores of the Holyfield/Foreman bout.

Judge: Eugene Grant 116-111
Judge: Jerry Roth 117-110
Judge: Tom Kaczmarek 115-112

Two of these Judges I know very well, if fact I was with one of them this past Tuesday night and he just sent me an E-Mail.
I always stand to be corrected. Thank you for correcting me. Actually, what I meant to say was that Foreman lost on points only it didn't came out that way when I typed it. It was a typo. Thanks for correcting my error.

hhacup said:
As far as Marciano having a left hook as hard as Frazier's, I think anyone that would agree with that doesn't know what there talking about.

Frazier had one of the GREATEST left hooks in the history of boxing, anybody that knows anything about boxing would agree to that. They also would agree that Rocky had one of the best RIGHT hands in boxing history, BUT his left was no where near as good as Frazier's.
Of course, things such as this is more just simply speculation there' no way I know of to accurately judge it perfectly.

In things like this people tend to judge it more just according to their impressions they have received about certian fighter's I think is all.

For example, how could any one acurately know that Joe Fraizer could hit harder with a left hook than any one else did in the history of boxing?

But if enough people tend to believe that it tends to be accepted by many people as being a fact even though it may or may not be true. Its merely just opinions that's all.

I agree that many do believe that Joe Fraizer could hit the hardest with a left hook than any one else had ever did in the history of boxing.

He may have I'm not sure. But any way, we do know he was an exceptional puncher in throwing a left hook. That we do know.

Could he hit harder with a left hook than Rocky Marciano?

You guess would be as good as any body elses. But in having seen Rocky's fights and in having seen Joe Fraziers too. Especially Joe's for he was in my time, you see.

Its just only that Joe never impressed me that he could punch harder in throwing a left hook than Rocky that's all. He may have but if he did? Its just that hasn't been my impression.

In Rocky Marciano's early career I do know that he had exceptional power in his right hand. Also I do know that later he developed a bigger punch in his left hand and had the knockout punch in both hands.

Now I just want to say this only because I hear fans talk about punching power a lot. Its NOT lifting weights and having big muscles that creates or generates punching power. Its leverage, speed and timing.

I just mention the lifting weights thing, only just because no boxers use to lift weights and there are many today who do box who do lift weights today.

Taking my father for an example, back in the the very late 1940s and 1950s he was a good featherweight and and later a good lightweight. There were only eight weight divisions.

Not usuallly and not often but there were times in which he would spar in the gym with bigger guys even with heavyweights on some occasions. He had one hellauva punch in his right hand. Most near all the fights he won in both the amateur and professional ranks was by knocking his opponents out.

Later he came to have that punch in his left hand too in throwing a left hook.

But that is not an uncommon thing for fighters who are sluggers who can punch very hard.

In sparring in the gym my father was known at times to even knock heavyweights down. My father was a little guy, and he was a smaller man than I, but he had a big man's punch.

Back now to Joe Frazier!

It may could have been that Frazier could have punched as hard or near as hard, or even harder in throwing a left hook than Marciano. But if he did, he never impresed me that he did that all I'm saying.

hhascup said:
In a bout against Foreman, it would be all wrong for Rocky.

BIG George would walk right through him.
Of course, that's a matter of opinion.

I've read enough of your very good posts which I don't always agree with ... (smiling), to see you may be likely saying this because Foreman was a bigger man than Marciano, and that may be much the reason you think that, but I disagree because I have seen exceptionally tough smaller guys flatten big men.

George Foreman was a pretty big guy, its always been hard for the heavyweights to go long rounds they just aren't built for it.

Of course, there can be exceptions, I think you know what I saying.

Of course, in the professional ranks the rounds are longer than in the amatuer ranks and they also go more rounds than in the amateur ranks.

Foreman has the same problem that Mike Tyson did in being that after 5 or 6 rounds he got tired.

Marciano didn't have that problem, plus we obviously know he could hit very hard. He was a knockout artist too.

Of course, any thing can happen in a fight!

Prime-to-prime comparing the two fighters George Foreman and Rocky Marciano, I would pick Marciano a winner by a knockout taking Foreman out in the seven or eight round.

I want to say this it was strategy that caused Foreman to lose his fight with Muhummed Ali.

It was the strategy Ali used that beat Foreman.

Another reason I want to say this is because fans and young inexperiened fighters all tend to think boxing is all about power and speed.

Power and speed are good, and they are tools. But like youth can be a tool. Youth is good.

But what wins fights especially between two experienced fighters that are evenly matched is always, ALWAYS strategy, and skill.

This is what beat Foreman in his fight with Muhummed Ali.

Ali out thought Foreman, and his strategy was perfect that he used to beat Foreman.

This is what gave Ali the edge and enabled him to beat Foreman.

This is just calling it the way I saw it is all.

hhascup said:
I do believe that Rocky would beat some boxers that Foreman wouldn't, BUT head to head, it's all George. Style make fights, and this would be all wrong for Rocky.
Rocky used strategy too. Perhaps I can get more in to talking about that some time.

Rocky was really a good defensive fighter, but a lot of people never realized that about him.

Rocky would give the impression that he was a tough guy, and he was a tough guy, he was an incrediably tough guy, but he was clever too.

In fact, Ali learned that about him in the computer fight they had. Ali said he found out that Marciano was harder to hit with a punch than he had thought he would be.

Ali's manager and trainer Angelo Dundee was there and he said that also about Marciano.

Dundee said that Ali had a hard time reaching Rocky with a jab, and he talked about this and said. Rocky has his own technique in which he saw in using his leg. It looked like Rocky was standing still, but he was actually sliding away from the punch.

Rocky didn't just win his fights because he was a hard puncher, and was always so very well-conditioned. It was also strategy he used that enabled him to win fights.

JC
 

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I guess it was Rocky's strategy to fall way behind Walcott when he finally caught up to him in the 13th round.

I wonder how Marciano got all cut up in several of his bouts if he had a good defense.

I will say that Rocky was a GREAT Slugger, and everyone would agree with that. He went after the knockout in just about every punch he threw.

As far as Foreman goes, it would be very hard for Marciano to get inside of Foreman. Big George was so much Bigger & Stronger then Rocky. Foreman would push him away everytime even if he did get close. Again, like you said, this is my opinion, BUT it's also the opinion of many others.

See my opinions go on the facts, ALL THE FACTS. I would LOVE to say that Rocky Marciano was the best Heavyweight ever, BUT I would not be HONEST if I did.
 

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hhascup said:
I guess it was Rocky's strategy to fall way behind Walcott when he finally caught up to him in the 13th round.

I wonder how Marciano got all cut up in several of his bouts if he had a good defense.
No slight, intended. But what you said tells me that you did not understand any what I said.

Your a historian, but if you had been a fighter, an experienced fighter, or had ever been you would have understood what I said.

Somethings you aren't going to be able to understand unless you've been there.

I'm talking about fighting now not history.

I know you want to take Rocky's away from him, but the fact remains that he's special. Rocky's a rare breed, and there has never been any one like him, and there will never be another Rocky Marciano.

For a handler and trainer today to find another Rocky Marciano would be like catching lighting in a bottle.

hhascup said:
I will say that Rocky was a GREAT Slugger, and everyone would agree with that. He went after the knockout in just about every punch he threw.
No fighter throws every punch as hard as he could in a fight including Rocky Marciano. You would be tired quick if you did. But you would have to be a fighter and to have been there to know that.



hhascap said:
As far as Foreman goes, it would be very hard for Marciano to get inside of Foreman.
It would not be hard for any experienced fighter that was a really good or great fighter to get inside of George Foreman or any body else for that matter.


hhascup said:
Big George was so much Bigger & Stronger then Rocky.
The size means nothing. Boxing like many other sports isn't all about brute strength, but skill.


hhascup said:
Foreman would push him away everytime even if he did get close.

Again, like you said, this is my opinion, BUT it's also the opinion of many others.

See my opinions go on the facts, ALL THE FACTS.
That's what you keeping saying, and you put spins on stuff in coming to many of your conclusions too. (smiling)

hhascup said:
I would LOVE to say that Rocky Marciano was the best Heavyweight ever, BUT I would not be HONEST if I did.
I chose to be honest too. That's why I have to put Rocky on top, and say he was the best. By the way, Henry. I want to thank you for your earlier post in which you posted the rankings of the top ten contenders in Rocky's era when he held the title. I took note of it.

JC
 

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JCC said:
No slight, intended. But what you said tells me that you did not understand any what I said.

Your a historian, but if you had been a fighter, an experienced fighter, or had ever been you would have understood what I said.

Somethings you aren't going to be able to understand unless you've been there.

I'm talking about fighting now not history.JC
Whoever said I didn't box. I 1st put boxing gloves on when I was 8 years old, while in a Foster Home in New Jersey. When I was 10 until my mid teens, all I did was box. We use to box against all the other kids in Paterson and I was very good. I was tall and thin and I tried to box like Luis Rodriguez. I could box all day, as I use to run 20 miles a day, really. I got so good in running, people told me that I could get a free ride to college if I just did that. So I did, and I became a State Champion, BUT my father passed away less then 2 months before I finished High School.

JCC said:
I know you want to take Rocky's away from him, but the fact remains that he's special. Rocky's a rare breed, and there has never been any one like him, and there will never be another Rocky Marciano.

For a handler and trainer today to find another Rocky Marciano would be like catching lighting in a bottle.

I would agree with that, BUT he would be a Cruiserweight, not a Heavyweight. In fact he would be a small Cruiserweight.



JCC said:
No fighter throws every punch as hard as he could in a fight including Rocky Marciano. You would be tired quick if you did. But you would have to be a fighter and to have been there to know that.
Henry Armstrong would come very close. He was one boxer that didn't stop.





JCC said:
It would not be hard for any experienced fighter that was a really good or great fighter to get inside of George Foreman or any body else for that matter.
Joe Frazier was one of the best infighters ever, and he couldn't do it, so I would have to say that it would be very hard to do so.




JCC said:
The size means nothing. Boxing like many other sports isn't all about brute strength, but skill.

Then what your saying is that Sugar Ray Robinson or even Willie Pep could have beaten any Heavyweight.

Size does mean something, in fact it means a lot, BUT it is not the only thing.




JCC said:
That's what you keeping saying, and you put spins on stuff in coming to many of your conclusions too. (smiling)
Just watch the tapes, it says it all. Foreman was very hard to get inside of.



JCC said:
I chose to be honest too. That's why I have to put Rocky on top, and say he was the best. By the way, Henry. I want to thank you for your earlier post in which you posted the rankings of the top ten contenders in Rocky's era when he held the title. I took note of it. JC

Well, that's just your opinion, like it's my Opinion that he wasn't.

Thank you too!
 

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hhascup said:
Then what your saying is that Sugar Ray Robinson or even Willie Pep could have beaten any Heavyweight.
When I said size means nothing it wasn't in reference to featherweights fighting heavyweights.

It was in reference to Rocky Marciano.

Rocky was a heavyweight.

How would Rocky have done against the modern heavyweights?

That's easy; Rocky would have beaten them all.

If Rocky was around in his prime today he would put all those fighters away.

The size means nothing.

Rocky would just wear them all down and pretty soon you'd hear the ring announcement "... and the winner by a knockout .. Rocky Marciano."

You could line up all those "chesse champs" of today, that's what Rocky would have called them in his day, and one right after another, Rocky would take them all out a day apart.

How would Rocky have done against any of the heavyweights of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s?

Rocky would have beaten them all.

How would Rocky have done against George Foreman?

Fists would fly and the birds would sing, and you'd see George Foreman laying down out there in the ring knocked out in the seventh or eight round.

I know how Rocky trained, and I know what Rocky could do in the ring, and I'm convinced there is no heavyweight today or of any past era that could have beaten him.

Also these facts remain ...

Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champion ever to complete a professional career without a loss, 49-0, with 43 KOs, and Rocky was also the greatest slugger in boxing history having knocked out 88 percent of his opponents compared to 76 percent by runner-up Joe Louis.

Rocky Marciano was the toughest and greatest heavyweight fighter and champion that ever put on a pair of tightest in the history of gloved boxing.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I would like to point out that George Foreman retired with an 84% KO ratio when losses are included. It was 89% when only wins are considered. Foreman did have a very powerful punch... although I will say the Michael Moorer KO looked a little odd :)
 

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JCC said:
When I said size means nothing it wasn't in reference to featherweights fighting heavyweights.

It was in reference to Rocky Marciano.

Rocky was a heavyweight.

How would Rocky have done against the modern heavyweights?

That's easy; Rocky would have beaten them all.

If Rocky was around in his prime today he would put all those fighters away.

The size means nothing.

Rocky would just wear them all down and pretty soon you'd hear the ring announcement "... and the winner by a knockout .. Rocky Marciano."

You could line up all those "chesse champs" of today, that's what Rocky would have called them in his day, and one right after another, Rocky would take them all out a day apart.

How would Rocky have done against any of the heavyweights of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s?

Rocky would have beaten them all.

How would Rocky have done against George Foreman?

Fists would fly and the birds would sing, and you'd see George Foreman laying down out there in the ring knocked out in the seventh or eight round.

I know how Rocky trained, and I know what Rocky could do in the ring, and I'm convinced there is no heavyweight today or of any past era that could have beaten him.

Also these facts remain ...

Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champion ever to complete a professional career without a loss, 49-0, with 43 KOs, and Rocky was also the greatest slugger in boxing history having knocked out 88 percent of his opponents compared to 76 percent by runner-up Joe Louis.

Rocky Marciano was the toughest and greatest heavyweight fighter and champion that ever put on a pair of tightest in the history of gloved boxing.

JC

When you wake up, let me know!
 

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Hey, Henry. I knew a guy like you that use to always praise the big guys until they all started getting knockout.

You think Rocky's too small to fight the big guys?

Rocky loved fighting the big guys; he found them easier to beat and knock out than the faster little guys that ran all over the ring and tried to escape.

JC
 

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JCC said:
Hey, Henry. I knew a guy like you that use to always praise the big guys until they all started getting knockout.

You think Rocky's too small to fight the big guys?

Rocky loved fighting the big guys; he found them easier to beat and knock out than the faster little guys that ran all over the ring and tried to escape.

JC

I guess that's why he didn't box Nino Valdez, Tommy Hurricane Jackson or Bob Baker. All 3 were rated from #1 to #4 during Rocky's time as the Champion.

Just name one Heavyweight Contender that was over 6 feet or weighed more then 205 pounds, besides Louis that he fought. You can't because he never did.

Listen if Marciano was boxing today with the modern training, etc., he could be close to 6 foot tall and would weigh about 210 pounds. If he did, I might be able to rate him right up there with some of the Greatest. The only thing is that he still didn't box the competition that some of the others did. If he hung around another couple of years and boxed and beat guys like Patterson, Ingo and Liston, I would have to say that he was one of the best, if not the Greatest Heavyweight ever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think Rocky would have liked to fight Patterson... I don't think his family wanted him to.

Anyway, Rocky probably would have looked a little better if he would have fought the three you mentioned.
 

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RoccoMarciano said:
I think Rocky would have liked to fight Patterson... I don't think his family wanted him to.

Anyway, Rocky probably would have looked a little better if he would have fought the three you mentioned.
That is all I am saying. If he fought these guys and beat them, then we can talk about him being the Best!
 

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JCC said:
How would Rocky have done against the modern heavyweights?

That's easy; Rocky would have beaten them all.

If Rocky was around in his prime today he would put all those fighters away.

The size means nothing.


How would Rocky have done against any of the heavyweights of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s?

Rocky would have beaten them all.


I know how Rocky trained, and I know what Rocky could do in the ring, and I'm convinced there is no heavyweight today or of any past era that could have beaten him.
WOW :eek:
I know you love the "rock", but your taking that a bit far don't you think?
 
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