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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I got no choice but to rate him ahead of Kelly Pavlik at Middleweight. He has a better resume, and the facade of Pavlik's invincibility is now long gone. I'm not sure Kelly will even want to fight him should Abraham KO Sturm too.

Hopefully the Abraham Sturm fight gets made, while Kelly holds on to his paper status at the Ring Champion, most likely defending it against a sub par Marco Antonio Rubio.
 

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Abraham has a very good resume at middle, but you wouldn't be saying this if Pavlik hadn't lost to Hopkins, which doesn't count because it was above the middleweight limit. Pavlik beat solid contenders before Taylor and he should stay at #1 if Abraham beats Sturm.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Abraham has a very good resume at middle, but you wouldn't be saying this if Pavlik hadn't lost to Hopkins, which doesn't count because it was above the middleweight limit. Pavlik beat solid contenders before Taylor and he should stay at #1 if Abraham beats Sturm.
A loss against a guy who spent 15 years at Middleweight and was just there not that long ago will always count. Kelly is supposed to be the naturally bigger guy, everyone else said this before the fight happened, Kelly included. And Pavlik wasn't beating solid fighters, he beat Miranda, then he beat Taylor, and got lucky Taylor gassed in the second fight.

Abraham vs Pavlik is going to play out like Clottey vs Margarito, except Pavlik doesn't have Margarito's jaw and Abraham isn't about to injure himself during the fight. It's damn near a mismatch. I got Abraham winning a clear decision, but let him get by Sturm first.
 

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A loss against a guy who spent 15 years at Middleweight and was just there not that long ago will always count. Kelly is supposed to be the naturally bigger guy, everyone else said this before the fight happened, Kelly included. And Pavlik wasn't beating solid fighters, he beat Miranda, then he beat Taylor, and got lucky Taylor gassed in the second fight.

Abraham vs Pavlik is going to play out like Clottey vs Margarito, except Pavlik doesn't have Margarito's jaw and Abraham isn't about to injure himself during the fight. It's damn near a mismatch. I got Abraham winning a clear decision, but let him get by Sturm first.
There's so many things wrong with that paragraph I don't know where to start. But here it goes:

1) It was above the middleweight limit, it affects his Lt. Heavyweight and P4P ranking, not middleweight.

2) It doesn't matter if he was supposed to be, if he was, if he isn't, or what was said, that fight happened above the limit so it doesn't count towards his middleweight record.

3)Pavlik knocked out Zuniga, McKart, Zertuche, Miranda, and Taylor. Whether you want to admit it or not these guys are solid and Kelly brutally knocked them out. Miranda was questionably undefeated and had beaten Abraham's face in, Edison was easily the most feared guy in the division. Taylor was undefeated and The Middleweight Champ, but I guess you can chalk that up to lucky punches, stamina, workrate, and heart.

4) Ok, so luck goes into guys stamina now. I'm gonna pass that on to a pro boxer friend of mine.

I know you want to discredit Pavlik so bad, but your going by your opinion, more than actual fact.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There's so many things wrong with that paragraph I don't know where to start. But here it goes:

1) It was above the middleweight limit, it affects his Lt. Heavyweight and P4P ranking, not middleweight.

2) It doesn't matter if he was supposed to be, if he was, if he isn't, or what was said, that fight happened above the limit so it doesn't count towards his middleweight record.

3)Pavlik knocked out Zuniga, McKart, Zertuche, Miranda, and Taylor. Whether you want to admit it or not these guys are solid and Kelly brutally knocked them out. Miranda was questionably undefeated and had beaten Abraham's face in, Edison was easily the most feared guy in the division. Taylor was undefeated and The Middleweight Champ, but I guess you can chalk that up to lucky punches, stamina, workrate, and heart.

4) Ok, so luck goes into guys stamina now. I'm gonna pass that on to a pro boxer friend of mine.

I know you want to discredit Pavlik so bad, but your going by your opinion, more than actual fact.
Abraham beat Miranda with a broken jaw, very short list of fighters than have done that against quality opponents (Ali not even on this list). Kelly's resume isn't god awful, but if Abraham tags on Sturm to his resume his will be superior to Pavlik. Taylor could be another flash in the pan like Judah, we don't know for sure yet. And he could have lost to Winky and Spinks both. Pavlik had something to do with Taylor gassing I'm sure, but Taylor moderated his activity so well he should not have gassed that bad. He's still amateurish in the amount of energy he exerts throwing punches because he throws them incorrectly. If he knew how to not waste so much there is no doubt he would have beaten Pavlik in the rematch.

And this isn't about discrediting Pavlik, #2 in the division ain't half bad, Abraham however is just that damn good. Ye shall see.
 

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I got no choice but to rate him ahead of Kelly Pavlik at Middleweight. He has a better resume, and the facade of Pavlik's invincibility is now long gone. I'm not sure Kelly will even want to fight him should Abraham KO Sturm too.

Hopefully the Abraham Sturm fight gets made, while Kelly holds on to his paper status at the Ring Champion, most likely defending it against a sub par Marco Antonio Rubio.
Better résumé?! Who the hell has Abraham beaten? Miranda? Pavlik beat him too and in much more dominant fashion than in the first fight where Abraham needed lots of help from referee Randy Neumann. By the time Abraham got him for the rematch, he was picking the bones. Miranda was pretty much a spent force at the top level. Marquez? C'mon now. Raul Marquez hadn't held a title in eleven years and had been stopped in three subsequent opportunities. Jermain Taylor, who Pavlik twice beat and once knocked out, dominated Marquez four years ago. Since that fight, one of his most notable comeback fights was eeking out a draw with Bronco McKart who Pavlik had already knocked out. Elvin Ayala? Talk about a soft touch...What a joke that was! Kelly Pavlik knocked out the undisputed champ in Jermain Taylor, a man who twice bested Bernard Hopkins, controversial or not. Abraham on the other hand won his alphabet title by beating who? Oh, that's right, the ever-fearsome Kingsley Ikeke who has also lost to Anthony Hanshaw and Jean Pascal and has beaten no one. Unless you count a spent Antwun Echols...
 
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And this isn't about discrediting Pavlik, #2 in the division ain't half bad, Abraham however is just that damn good. Ye shall see.
I agree with that part but at the minute Pavlik's resume is better. Abraham is the better fighter though and will prove this beyond doubt in time IMO.
 

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I can't wait to see Pavlik-Abraham. It should have happened already instead of the ridiculous Hopkins adventure. It's gonna be a class fight:cool:
 

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I dont rate fighters just at there weight, if a fighter loses he loses it counts anywhere. Without the Taylor wins Pavlik really has nothing to shout about.
 
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At some point they're going to meet (Summer '09?) and it will all be put to bed. Until then it's all specualtion as they both have belts and have never lossed at 160. One thing is for sure, that fight is going to be huge. If Abraham knocks out Sturm, I'd be willing to give AA the nod in the mega unification fight.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Better résumé?! Who the hell has Abraham beaten? Miranda? Pavlik beat him too and in much more dominant fashion than in the first fight where Abraham needed lots of help from referee Randy Neumann. By the time Abraham got him for the rematch, he was picking the bones. Miranda was pretty much a spent force at the top level. Marquez? C'mon now. Raul Marquez hadn't held a title in eleven years and had been stopped in three subsequent opportunities. Jermain Taylor, who Pavlik twice beat and once knocked out, dominated Marquez four years ago. Since that fight, one of his most notable comeback fights was eeking out a draw with Bronco McKart who Pavlik had already knocked out. Elvin Ayala? Talk about a soft touch...What a joke that was! Kelly Pavlik knocked out the undisputed champ in Jermain Taylor, a man who twice bested Bernard Hopkins, controversial or not. Abraham on the other hand won his alphabet title by beating who? Oh, that's right, the ever-fearsome Kingsley Ikeke who has also lost to Anthony Hanshaw and Jean Pascal and has beaten no one. Unless you count a spent Antwun Echols...
You kind of missed the thread title "If Abraham beats Sturm..." That's an addition to the resume. Once he's got that he trumps Pavlik. You made it abundantly obvious how much of a Pavlik fan you are with this post ^^
 

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You kind of missed the thread title "If Abraham beats Sturm..." That's an addition to the resume. Once he's got that he trumps Pavlik. You made it abundantly obvious how much of a Pavlik fan you are with this post ^^
I realized I missed that part after I had posted it, but it's okay. Even with a win over Sturm, I don't see that as being better than two over Taylor. I am a big Pavlik fan and I am somewhat fearful of how he'd handle Abraham even though I am extremely excited about the possibility of that fight. I think Abraham may very well be the better fighter at this point, though I am not sure of that and from the level of opposition, I don't think that anyone could be. Abraham could surpass him soon, but Pavlik has done more to this point and even with a win over Sturm, I think Pavlik's resume is better. By the time the two Germans fight, Pavlik should have another win in the bank against a rugged legitimate top contender in Rubio.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I realized I missed that part after I had posted it, but it's okay. Even with a win over Sturm, I don't see that as being better than two over Taylor. I am a big Pavlik fan and I am somewhat fearful of how he'd handle Abraham even though I am extremely excited about the possibility of that fight. I think Abraham may very well be the better fighter at this point, though I am not sure of that and from the level of opposition, I don't think that anyone could be. Abraham could surpass him soon, but Pavlik has done more to this point and even with a win over Sturm, I think Pavlik's resume is better. By the time the two Germans fight, Pavlik should have another win in the bank against a rugged legitimate top contender in Rubio.
Rubio didn't look like he had a remote chance in handling pavlik from the last I saw of him. unless this division is completely void of good fighters (which it could be) he's not really a top contender.
 

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Rubio didn't look like he had a remote chance in handling pavlik from the last I saw of him. unless this division is completely void of good fighters (which it could be) he's not really a top contender.
It is. But he's probably as legit as just about anyone on Hopkins' dossier from 1996-2000, save for Glen Johnson.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It is. But he's probably as legit as just about anyone on Hopkins' dossier from 1996-2000, save for Glen Johnson.
Johnson falls in with the rest of those fighters, he wasn't nearly as good as he is now back then. I looked up rubio on the ring ratings, he's #9. Pavlik could do better.
 
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Pavlik should fight Paul Williams. This fight was approved earlier but the two sides couldn't make it happen. Try again.
 

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Pavlik should fight Paul Williams. This fight was approved earlier but the two sides couldn't make it happen. Try again.
I wholeheartedly agree. The Williams camp had their collective minds made up on a particular figure and the purse bid just wouldn't have allowed for it. Hopefully they can find a way to make it work. I think it would be an excellent fight. When it was being thrown around, I was as close to sure as one can be that their fighter is going to win, but obviously my confidence has been a bit shaken as of late. Still, I like Kelly's chances and the excitement value for us fans.
 
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I'll build up my credits and we'll have a nice bet on it. :thumbsup:

I think it's a real dangerous fight for Williams to take as he is very unproven at 160. But I'm so tired of waiting for PW to get a top talent to accept the challenge I'd be pumped to see him fight anyone no matter how risky.
 
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