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Discussion Starter #1
How do you see this turning out? IMO Holmes would nail Frazier with his jab, and would bloody him up with it. Holmes used to spar Frazier, along with Ali, and Holmes used to give both great fights. This was before Holmes was a pro, and he hadn't perfected his jab yet. Frazier cracked one of his ribs one day, and Holmes finished up the sparring, and went home. The next day he walked in, and said that he couldn't spar because his rib was cracked. Well he had to spar anyway, and still gave Joe all he could handle. IMO Holmes would just be too quick and just too good for Joe. Joe would rip his left hook into Larry's ribs, but Larry is great at taking body shots, and also, has an iron jaw. Ali had a lot of trouble with Joe because he was easy to hit with a left hook. But Larry wasn't, and Larry could also slug it out a lot better than Ali could. IMO Holmes would win about 10-5 or 9-6.
 

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Great fight this would have been... Holmes via close dec, 8 rounds to 7 ((143-142)) in a classic 15 round fight... i see a back and and forth battle with Holmes doing just enough to pull it out in the end, both fighters would suffer there lumps... maybe even another classic round 15as was the case Holmes vs Norton :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If we are talking the Frazier who defeated Muhammad Ali, he would beat Larry Holmes too. At that time, only George Foreman (or maybe a bigger modern guy like Lennox Lewis) could have stopped Frazier.
Why modern? It is pretty obvious IMO that the fighters were much better from the early 80's on back to the 1920's. Guys like Cooney, Chuvalo, Cobb, Layne, Lyle, and such would all be champs in today's era. I am talking the Frazier of the Ali fight, and the Holmes of the Cooney or Ali fight (just Holmes dancing and moving instead of more sparring Ali).
 

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I'd take Frazier in this one. Frazier in his absolute prime was damm good and his style IMO was all wrong for Holmes. I'd say Frazier UD
 

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Why modern? It is pretty obvious IMO that the fighters were much better from the early 80's on back to the 1920's. Guys like Cooney, Chuvalo, Cobb, Layne, Lyle, and such would all be champs in today's era. I am talking the Frazier of the Ali fight, and the Holmes of the Cooney or Ali fight (just Holmes dancing and moving instead of more sparring Ali).
It's a perception I have on how to call Frazier's number. Anyone who could duplicate the elements that Foreman brought into the ring will beat Joe Frazier 95 times out of 100. The four elements were: greater height and reach; greater physical strength; a piston-like jab; and heavy, wrecking-ball power.

Not all big men would have those elements, but clearly you need to be a big guy to employ them. In the heavyweight golden age, it was just Foreman. Sonny Liston could have done the same in the late 1960s, though.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It's a perception I have on how to call Frazier's number. Anyone who could duplicate the elements that Foreman brought into the ring will beat Joe Frazier 95 times out of 100. The four elements were: greater height and reach; greater physical strength; a piston-like jab; and heavy, wrecking-ball power.

Not all big men would have those elements, but clearly you need to be a big guy to employ them. In the heavyweight golden age, it was just Foreman. Sonny Liston could have done the same in the late 1960s, though.
If I remember correctly, it was Foreman's uppercuts that did Frazier in, not the jab, but a good jab would trouble Frazier as well. Anyone who had a hard uppercut, could take a great shot, and responded well to pressure would give Frazier a very tough fight.
 

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The jab matters because it was one of two ways Foreman was keeping Frazier back, preventing him from coming on. The other was simply pushing him back out (which is where being stronger than Joe matters). That is how Frazier winds up stuck, at his opponent's optimum range, but unable to get his offense going.

If you are like Holmes, with an excellent jab, but not a thudding one or the muscle to shove Frazier around, it will only be a few rounds before the smoking begins .... and from there, begins to mount.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The jab matters because it was one of two ways Foreman was keeping Frazier back, preventing him from coming on. The other was simply pushing him back out (which is where being stronger than Joe matters). That is how Frazier winds up stuck, at his opponent's optimum range, but unable to get his offense going.

If you are like Holmes, with an excellent jab, but not a thudding one or the muscle to shove Frazier around, it will only be a few rounds before the smoking begins .... and from there, begins to mount.
Larry's jab was plenty powerful, he dropped Occasio with one and did everything but drop Rodriguez with it. It also kept Cooney off of him (I know he didn't apply as much pressure as Frazier, but the pressure was still there). It also was able to keep Holyfield at bay. Larry could use his jab however he really needed to, and that's one of the reasons why I think it was the best.
 

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i'd go with frazier, holmes was a great boxer and would keep joe frazier on the outside controlling the ring with his tremendous jab, but lets face it holmes is no ali and would struggle to keep joe at bay for the whole fight, i'd give it to joe frazier once he found his feet as he tends to start off slowly in alot of his fights, by UD or late stoppage.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
i'd go with frazier, holmes was a great boxer and would keep joe frazier on the outside controlling the ring with his tremendous jab, but lets face it holmes is no ali and would struggle to keep joe at bay for the whole fight, i'd give it to joe frazier once he found his feet as he tends to start off slowly in alot of his fights, by UD or late stoppage.
Holmes isn't Ali no, but he did have some things that Ali didn't. Like a very hard uppercut and bodyshots.
 

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but he couldn't punch as fast as ali, he couldn't move around as well as ali, he didn't have the footwork that ali was renouned for, he couldn't beat ali to the punch.

but yes your right he did have some terrific uppercuts and some terrific body shots, but would that be enough to beat a guy like frazier, who was beaten easier on the outside rather then on the inside, with close uppercuts and bodyshots, rather he was beaten with long range jabs and straights.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
but he couldn't punch as fast as ali, he couldn't move around as well as ali, he didn't have the footwork that ali was renouned for, he couldn't beat ali to the punch.

but yes your right he did have some terrific uppercuts and some terrific body shots, but would that be enough to beat a guy like frazier, who was beaten easier on the outside rather then on the inside, with close uppercuts and bodyshots, rather he was beaten with long range jabs and straights.
Well, I think Larry's ability to sneak his uppercut in and slug it out if need be would be enough to keep Frazier off him a little better, and Larry had a harder jab and straight right than Ali aswell. I just think that what Larry fell a little behind Ali in, he made up for in his power, strength, and sluging abilities.
 

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Well, I think Larry's ability to sneak his uppercut in and slug it out if need be would be enough to keep Frazier off him a little better, and Larry had a harder jab and straight right than Ali aswell. I just think that what Larry fell a little behind Ali in, he made up for in his power, strength, and sluging abilities.
fair point, so Prime vs. Prime, Ali vs. Holmes who wins?:)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
fair point, so Prime vs. Prime, Ali vs. Holmes who wins?:)
Ali 2 out of 3 times by narrow decisions. They both had the style to disrupt eachother. But I think Cassius takes it by very close decisions 2 out of 3 times, with Holmes winning the other one by narrow decision.
 

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Ali 2 out of 3 times by narrow decisions. They both had the style to disrupt eachother. But I think Cassius takes it by very close decisions 2 out of 3 times, with Holmes winning the other one by narrow decision.
yes i can agree with that. :thumbsup:
 

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Id say Holmes by KO.


Bill youd probably know....I couldnt find anywhere else to ask this but in the Holmes vs M. Frazier fight....prior to the fight being stopped...was Holmes trying to signal Mills lane to stop it? or was he looking at his fist while he was winding up them crushing right hands? it looked like he looked at mills a few times then his right hand but Im not really sure..I ask because I was just researching what people have said about him and how he was a gentleman in n out the ring ..Also saw the Cobb fight...what a beating...Holmes CLEARLY didnt want to continue pounding the guy 2 bad.

Been watching Larry Holmes fights today, I never really followed him too much but I like what I see.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Id say Holmes by KO.


Bill youd probably know....I couldnt find anywhere else to ask this but in the Holmes vs M. Frazier fight....prior to the fight being stopped...was Holmes trying to signal Mills lane to stop it? or was he looking at his fist while he was winding up them crushing right hands? it looked like he looked at mills a few times then his right hand but Im not really sure..I ask because I was just researching what people have said about him and how he was a gentleman in n out the ring ..Also saw the Cobb fight...what a beating...Holmes CLEARLY didnt want to continue pounding the guy 2 bad.

Been watching Larry Holmes fights today, I never really followed him too much but I like what I see.
He was waving Lane in to stop the fight because he was hitting Marvis at will. He didn't like to hit people that hard, that often. So, he wanted to show Mills that he could knock out Marvis when he wanted, and Lane saw that and stopped the fight.
 

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yes i can agree with that. :thumbsup:
He was waving Lane in to stop the fight because he was hitting Marvis at will. He didn't like to hit people that hard, that often. So, he wanted to show Mills that he could knock out Marvis when he wanted, and Lane saw that and stopped the fight.


Classy, thanks for the reply. Yea it seemed like it but yea he was pummeling Marvis... I was confused on Fraziers technique though, he seemed like he was kind of caught between his daddys style..and I dont know what , but it didnt seem to work out too well for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Classy, thanks for the reply. Yea it seemed like it but yea he was pummeling Marvis... I was confused on Fraziers technique though, he seemed like he was kind of caught between his daddys style..and I dont know what , but it didnt seem to work out too well for him.
Marvis was a very good boxer, but Joe changed his style up so he was more aggressive and a "come forward" type fighter. Marvis still did decent, he beat some of the top guys of the era, he just got destroyed by greats such as Holmes and Tyson. He was rushed through the pro ranks, and probably should have been a cruiserweight.
 
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