Marciano never lost as a pro, Ali did. Now we know who the greatest of all time is. :cheeky4:dmoney said:
BTW, sorry if facts bother you :laugh:
Lets put an end to the 49-0 Marciano Myth
Did Rocky Marciano Lose a Pro Fight Under Another Name?
Read it, and then stop saying he was undefeated, it bugs me.
Read it, and then stop saying he was undefeated, it bugs me.
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BTW, sorry if facts bother you :laugh:
So he never lost a pro fight.hhascup said:I agree!
Even back when he was boxing you couldn't turn go from Amateur to Pro then back to Amateur. That is why he used the name Rocky Mack.
He actually lost only once after he turned Pro the 1st time.
Amateur Bouts
April 15, 1946 Henry Lester L-DQ 3
August 23, 1946 Joe DeAngelis L 3
January 17, 1947 Bob Girard L 3
Pro Bout under the name of Rocky Mack
March 17, 1947 Lee Epperson KO-3 (PRO DEBUT)
Amateur Bout
March 1, 1948 Coley Wallace L 3
Pro Bout
July 12, 1948 Harry Bilzerian TKO-1 (2nd Pro Bout)
And that's exactly how history records it. Seems a little dense to bring up crap that never happened... in other words a pro loss. Seems plausible Marciano stepped up the pace in pro fights.bill1234 said:Marciano is known as an undefeated pro, not amerature.
Still lost 5, or so, as a pro... not that Clay has one iota to do with the title of the thread.hhascup said:Ali did loss 5 bouts, BUT they were all after he turned Pro AND after he turned Pro, he never went back to the Amateurs. He won the Olympic Gold Medal on September 5, 1960, he had his 1st Pro bout on October 29, 1960.
hhascup said:Your 100% correct, BUT what some people are saying is that he turned Pro and then lost to Wallace in an Amateur bout. If he used his own him instead of Rocky Mack when he fought as a Pro, someone would have picked that up and he wouldn't have been aloud to go back to the Amateurs like he did. Once you turn Pro, you can't box Amateur.
Simple fact is Rocky never lost a professional fight, Henry. That's not going to change regardless of how one skews the data.
Sorry, I missed that portion of the thread. I've never heard Clay fought as an amateur after turning pro.hhascup said:The only reason I brought him into it is that someone stated that Ali went back to the Amateurs after turning Pro as Rocky did, and that just isn't true.
If he would have went 49-1 as a pro, I wouldn't think any less of him. The fact he never lost as a pro seems to point to the fact that his own will wouldn't allow him to lose at that level.hhascup said:Again your 100% correct as far as I know.
The reason people keep saying what they do is that some people think that Rocky fought more then just 1 bout as a Pro using a different name, such as Rocky Mack. Back then record keeping wasn't the best either.
I'm curious regarding the Lowry fight you mention, Henry. Seems you almost came out and stated Rocky may have lost that one.
Hard for me to argue with anything that is so "hush-hush"hhascup said:I met Ted Lowry a couple of years ago, he was a pretty nice guy, BUT he was very small for a Heavyweight. They list him at 5'10", BUT when I met him he was less then that, BUT he was still in Great shape for his age. Most people at the fight thought Ted won, even the newspaper writers that were their thought he won. I was also told a lot more BUT I really can't say because I give my word that I wouldn't.
I'm not doubting you as an expert, Henry. I just think you are a little harder on Marciano than need be at times.hhascup said:I wish everything was on the up and up BUT the more I get involved with boxing people the more I learn.
Last week when I saw Bert Sugar, he said, Henry I read what you said about Walcott in the New York Times, very good.
He also said that the Times called him up and he said, Henry said it all and I have nothing to add.
This was about a Monument of Jersey Joe Walcott we put up in Camden New Jersey and I was the guest speaker.
Frazier would have beaten them all, just as Rocky did. One of the best fights in history would have been between Marciano and Frazier. Anybody's guess who would have won between those two. I tend towards Marciano because he could hit very hard with both hands... still a toss up in my book though.hhascup said:If Frazier fought the same 49 bouts as Rocky did, I honestly can't see him losing to any of them, can you.
I still rate him just inside my Top 10 and that is more then I can say for some people.
One of my main flaws is thinking swarmers are always best - not always the case, but it is the style I prefer. Ali would have had a very hard time against Marciano, just as he did against Frazier. Frazier and Marciano were just of the ilk Ali had a hard time fighting against, IMO. So I think Ali is a bit overrated at times, but then again, Ali did have the ability to take on various styles - something that Marciano and Frazier may lack.
Anyway, Henry, thanks for reminding me about the other stuff you've stated about the Rock
I'll always think he is one of the best!From a guy that lost to Marciano.. twice! What would you expect?hhascup said:Here's what one opponent had to say about Rocky:
An Interview with Roland LaStarza the Former Golden Gloves champ and heavyweight contender
On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision. "The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."
Rocky looked to hit awfully hard in fights. That head getting snapped back didn't come from a slow, or powerless, punch.
I don't know I ever stated PBF as being an expert.hhascup said:Like I said, there some people that are harder on Rocky then I am. This is just one of them.
Tyson, Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano were all made for each other in the ring. To come out and say Tyson would "own" Marciano may be a bit of a stretch. Marciano had an iron chin and would likely walk through some of Tyson's best - with a possible brief KD along the way.
My problem with some modern day people is that some think Marciano is nothing more than a pushover... that's hardly the case in reality.
Bill was talking about a guy being hard to hit, with no reference to power. Not that Rocky didn't possess both!hhascup said:Here's what one opponent had to say about Rocky:
An Interview with Roland LaStarza the Former Golden Gloves champ and heavyweight contender
On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision. "The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."
I agree with a couple of comments: Rocky wanted to hurt LaStarza (and Moore). I don't know of ANYBODY that didn't know that.hhascup said:On Rocky TV show "Main Event" he never said that. It wasn't in Rocky to carry anyone. He wanted to get the KO as fast as he could, and LaStarza wasn't any different. If he saw the opening he would try to finish it.
Here's a report of that bout:
In the first six rounds LaStarza outboxed Marciano and Rocky got away with almost every foul in the book. In the seventh he took control and was hitting hard. LaStarzas nose was bloody and he had a cut under the right eye. In the 11th Rocky threw a right to the jaw and a sweeping hook followed by a right and a hook. LaStarza was down. Although he managed to beat the count, the referee stopped the fight only seconds later.
Here's another one:
The rematch! LaStarza had never let up on his claim that he had won their first fight, and to make matters worse, he was quoted as saying that Marciano must be punch drunk from all the blows he had been taking. This infuriated Rocky, and he told those close to him that he would make LaStarza regret his words.
Roland's record had gone to 54-3 and until this fight he had never been knocked out. Marciano was at 44-0.
The fight started out with LaStarza frustrating Marciano with his clever style and his well executed combinations. He moved away from The Rock's attacks and slid along the ropes, proving to be what many, including Marciano, called "The best defensive fighter of the heavyweight division." When Rocky would get him momentarily pinned, he resorted to what Ali would later dub, "The rope-a-dope". Finally, a frustrated and worried Marciano was told by his trainer Charley Goldman, "Bang his arms until he brings them down."
From then on, Rocky savagely beat LaStarza's arms and upper body, until huge hematomas began appearing on the forearms. By the 10th round, Roland could barely lift his gloves above his shoulders. In the 11th, Marciano battered him terribly, knocking him down and through the ropes before the referee stopped the slaughter. LaStarza had chipped bones in his elbows and ruptured blood vessals that turned to hardened clots in his forearms and had to have surgery to repair the damage.
Before the bout was stopped, 1 judge had it even, another one had Rocky ahead by 2 points and the referee had him ahead by 4. So the bout was fairly close if you go by the score cards, so why would Rocky take that chance.
I did read about how Roland called Rocky punch drunk, and Rocky didn't like it and wanted to hurt Roland, BUT he would never carry him.
And Tyson was flawed in that he had a hard time with people that actually fought back... something you can bet on with Marciano.PrettyBoyFloyd said:Marciano was great. Don't get me wrong. I just can not justify him being one of the top 5 all-time heavyweights. From all of the fights I have watched his basic boxing just wasn't that great. If you were to take away his lights out power he would be sub par. I really like the guy, but it aggitates me when people consider him to be some sort of amazing boxer. I still to this day think Mike Tyson would knock him out by landing those crushing blows over 5-8 rounds.
I doubt Tyson has the power to put Marciano down for any length of time.
It would only take one landing. I'm not so sure Tyson had all that great a chin.PrettyBoyFloyd said:I just don't think Marciano would be hitting Tyson that much. I mean Tyson had severely faster hands and kept his gloves up like a helmet. Tyson could land one or two shots before Marciano's looping punches would come close to landing. It is the fact that Rocky swung like a street fighter than makes me think that he wasn't one of the all time bests.
Are you sure Marciano couldn't have done it with one? :cheeky4:bill1234 said:Tyson was the kind of guy that would take one, really hard shot, but after that you had the rest of the fight to finish him off. One hard shot seemed to take the fight out of Tyson, which is one of his biggest flaws.
Probably sobill1234 said:He could knock anyone out with 1 punch, but IMO he is more likely to finish Tyson off like he did to Moore.
I have my doubts Tyson would even want to step into a ring with a person the calibre of a prime Marciano.
Yes, but that amounts to making an assumption based upon ZERO fact, which you have, quite frankly, an annoying tendency to do! That is, concluding something as fact based upon your own impression more than anything else. I've no doubt many would concur with me on that.hhascup said:I would say that Tyson had at least the same amount of power and most likely more then Rocky did.
I guess Rocky had the slowest hand speed ever.....................
Just why did they ask you to talk about the Rock again? Beats me why in the heck anybody, let alone family members, would want you talking about the Rock in any way, shape, or form.
Destroyed? Louis didn't think so.Puncher1 said:Oh and if Joe Louis was in his prime he would have destroyed Marciano.
Rocky never once hit a guy with an elbow :laugh:
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