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Lets put an end to the 49-0 Marciano Myth

17062 Views 93 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  hhascup
Did Rocky Marciano Lose a Pro Fight Under Another Name?

Read it, and then stop saying he was undefeated, it bugs me.
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bill1234 said:
In ameratures Rocky losst 4 fights, thats because if you knock the guy down it counts just as much as a jab. They score it by aggression, punches landed/blocked, and overall abilityu to not get hit, not by dominance.
That's the way it's scored today, BUT back when Rocky was an Amateur they scored it the same as Pro's.

I believe they changed the scoring system because of some Olympic bouts, such as Roy Jones, that were really bad. Now they just count the punches.

I Ring Announce a lot and donate my time to the Amateurs a lot and I really don't like this way of scoring. I think they should go back the way it was or give more points if one boxer floors or even hurts another one.

I have seen many Amateur bouts, that if it was the Pro's, they would have scored it the other way. As the Announcer, I would try to explain the scoring system, BUT I don't agree with it.

bill1234 said:
An amerature loss doesn't count as a pro loss. Also Ali fought amerature after he turned pro, and he lost too. But does anyone mention that? NOPE!!! You just hate Marciano. Are you one of his old oppenents he KO'd in the first round and you are bitter about it?

Ali came out out of the Olympics in 1960 and then turned Pro. He never returned to the Amateur ranks.
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bill1234 said:
I based that on a biography I read on Ali, so I'm not at falt for that false info then.:eek:
Fair enough, BUT what bio was that?

I never heard that before!
bill1234 said:
This won't be much help but it was called (i read it in i forget a lot of the title and author) Muhammad Ali, the greatest. The author was from New Jersey I know that much.
Oh Boy, I'm from New Jersey. I think I might have that book!
Rocky was 8-4 as an Amateur, as Coley Wallace Joe DeAngelis Henry Lester & Bob Girard all beat him.

1. April 15, 1946 Henry Lester L-DQ3
(AAU Championship Tournament
Portland, Oregon August, 1946)

2. August 23, Frederic L. Ross KO 1
3. August 23, Richard Jarvis KO 1
4. August 23, Joe DeAngelis L 3

(Massachusetts State Amateur Heavyweight Championship, Boston, January, 1947)

5. January 17, Jim Connolly KO1
6. Jan 17, Bob Girard L3

(Massachusetts/Rhode Island Golden Gloves Tournament
Lowell, Massachusetts January 1948)

7. Jan 26, Joe Sidlaskis KO1
8. Charlie Mortimer KO 3
(Rocky wins Ma-RI Golden Gloves Tournament)

(New England Tournament of Champions, Feb 1948)

9. George McInnis TKO1
(Rocky wins New England Tournament of Champions)

(Golden Gloves All-East Coast Championships
New York, New York March 1948)

10. March 1, Coley Wallace L 3

(AAU Olympic tryouts in Boston, 1948, March)
11. Fred Fischera KO
12. George McGinnis W 3
(Rocky wins AAU Heavyweight Championship)
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ndeangelis88 said:
well i can tell you that my grandfather Joe DeAngelis beat rocky marciano in portland oregon in amatuers so there is one loss for you to tab up there.

Yes, like I said before, Rocky was 8-4 as an Amateur, as Coley Wallace Joe DeAngelis Henry Lester & Bob Girard all beat him.

April 15, 1946 Henry Lester L-DQ 3
August 23, 1946 Joe DeAngelis L 3
January 17, 1947 Bob Girard L 3
March 1, 1948 Coley Wallace L 3

Holmes had an Amateur record of 19 Wins 3 Loses if you go by the following web site:

About The Heavyweight Champion Larry Holmes
TysonJones said:
it isnt allowed now adays to turn pro and then go back and fight in the ameteurs. So if you go by todays standards, marciano would have a lose on his record. either way he was a great champ but by no means the best heavyweight ever.
I agree!

Even back when he was boxing you couldn't turn go from Amateur to Pro then back to Amateur. That is why he used the name Rocky Mack.

He actually lost only once after he turned Pro the 1st time.

Amateur Bouts
April 15, 1946 Henry Lester L-DQ 3
August 23, 1946 Joe DeAngelis L 3
January 17, 1947 Bob Girard L 3

Pro Bout under the name of Rocky Mack
March 17, 1947 Lee Epperson KO-3 (PRO DEBUT)

Amateur Bout
March 1, 1948 Coley Wallace L 3

Pro Bout
July 12, 1948 Harry Bilzerian TKO-1 (2nd Pro Bout)
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RoccoMarciano said:
So he never lost a pro fight.
Not that we know of and that is why a lot of people rate him so high. I have to rate him higher then I would because of his undefeated record.

I talked to Bert Sugar last week at the Bill Gallo Roast in New York, at $350 a plate, and he told me that the 2 bouts with Ted Lowry were not on the up & up.

In their 1st bout the local newspaper had Lowry winning six rounds to four. ("Tiger Ted Lowry by the Tale" The Sweet Science Jan. 16, 2006).

I also talked to several other old time boxing people that were their and they said the same thing, PLUS they stated that there were other bouts that were questionable too. I said, what does that mean, and they said, he had several bouts that were set-ups. The 1st Roland LaStarza bout, most people thought Rocky lost BUT again, 2 out of the 3 judges had it for Marciano. BUT your right, he never lost a Pro Bout that we know of.
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TysonJones said:
If you guys want to go by the books go ahead, but this is exactly how it is, Marciano lost a fight after turning pro. PERIOD! yes ali did as well but he lost 5 others so thats not a big deal.

Ali did loss 5 bouts, BUT they were all after he turned Pro AND after he turned Pro, he never went back to the Amateurs. He won the Olympic Gold Medal on September 5, 1960, he had his 1st Pro bout on October 29, 1960.
RoccoMarciano said:
And that's exactly how history records it. Seems a little dense to bring up crap that never happened... in other words a pro loss. Seems plausible Marciano stepped up the pace in pro fights.

Your 100% correct, BUT what some people are saying is that he turned Pro and then lost to Wallace in an Amateur bout. If he used his own name instead of Rocky Mack when he fought as a Pro, someone would have picked that up and he wouldn't have been aloud to go back to the Amateurs like he did. Once you turn Pro, you can't box Amateur.
RoccoMarciano said:
Still lost 5, or so, as a pro... not that Clay has one iota to do with the title of the thread.

The only reason I brought him into it is that someone stated that Ali went back to the Amateurs after turning Pro as Rocky did, and that just isn't true.
RoccoMarciano said:
Simple fact is Rocky never lost a professional fight, Henry. That's not going to change regardless of how one skews the data.
Again your 100% correct as far as I know.

The reason people keep saying what they do is that some people think that Rocky fought more then just 1 bout as a Pro using a different name, such as Rocky Mack. Back then record keeping wasn't the best either.
RoccoMarciano said:
If he would have went 49-1 as a pro, I wouldn't think any less of him. The fact he never lost as a pro seems to point to the fact that his own will wouldn't allow him to lose at that level.

I'm curious regarding the Lowry fight you mention, Henry. Seems you almost came out and stated Rocky may have lost that one.

If Rocky was 49-1 or 48-1, he would be rated much lower then he is now. Most Boxing Experts and Historians that I have talked to, has stated that.

I met Ted Lowry a couple of years ago, he was a pretty nice guy, BUT he was very small for a Heavyweight. They list him at 5'10", BUT when I met him he was less then that, BUT he was still in Great shape for his age. Most people at the fight thought Ted won, even the newspaper writers that were their thought he won. I was also told a lot more BUT I really can't say because I give my word that I wouldn't.

Enough said!
RoccoMarciano said:
Hard for me to argue with anything that is so "hush-hush"
I wish everything was on the up and up BUT the more I get involved with boxing people the more I learn.

Last week when I saw Bert Sugar, he said, Henry I read what you said about Walcott in the New York Times, very good.

He also said that the Times called him up and he said, Henry said it all and I have nothing to add.

This was about a Monument of Jersey Joe Walcott we put up in Camden New Jersey and I was the guest speaker.
RoccoMarciano said:
I'm not doubting you as an expert, Henry. I just think you are a little harder on Marciano than need be at times.
I honestly don't mean to be. As you might know when they had the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp several years ago, the Marciano family asked me to be the MC. I brought up his perfect 49-0 record with 43 KO's, I brought up the Computer bouts, 1st on the radio and then the one he had with Ali, which he won both.

I just can't rate him just on his record, you have to look at everything and also listen to other boxing experts and Historians. I also look at the films, who they beat, etc. Rocky was GREAT for his time, BUT his time wasn't that Great, and that is not his fault.

If Frazier fought the same 49 bouts as Rocky did, I honestly can't see him losing to any of them, can you.

I still rate him just inside my Top 10 and that is more then I can say for some people.
RoccoMarciano said:
Frazier would have beaten them all, just as Rocky did. One of the best fights in history would have been between Marciano and Frazier. Anybody's guess who would have won between those two. I tend towards Marciano because he could hit very hard with both hands... still a toss up in my book though.

One of my main flaws is thinking swarmers are always best - not always the case, but it is the style I prefer. Ali would have had a very hard time against Marciano, just as he did against Frazier. Frazier and Marciano were just of the ilk Ali had a hard time fighting against, IMO. So I think Ali is a bit overrated at times, but then again, Ali did have the ability to take on various styles - something that Marciano and Frazier may lack.

Anyway, Henry, thanks for reminding me about the other stuff you've stated about the Rock:) I'll always think he is one of the best!

Like you said, styles make fights and Rocky was not as Aggressive as Frazier was and Ali was hit by more left hooks then right crosses.

If Ali fought Rocky, I see Ali dancing away landing left jabs at well and cutting Rocky up. That is another thing, Rocky cut much easier Frazier. Ali had a 82" reach compared to Rocky's 68". Most expert agree that Ali would win going away.

Remember, Rocky never fought a BIG Top 10 Contender in his Career. The only boxer that was rated in the Top 10 that he fought that was over 6' and weighed over 200 pounds was Louis, and we all know that Joe was well past his prime.

Also, Frazier lost to only 2 boxers, Ali and Foreman. If Rocky fought them, IMO he would have lost to them too.

I said it many times, I would pay anything to see Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey and Tyson in a round ribbon Tournament.
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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
Mike Tyson would have his way with Marciano. I watched a Marciano fight last night on Classic, and I couldn't believe how open he was to straight shots. His punches were basically all hooks, and they were the wide, looping type. Mike Tyson would have eaten his lunch by the 5th round. I was watching last night trying to figure out how people honestly think Marciano would beat the Fraziers, Tysons, and even Foremans of later years.

The sport has evolved and the information is much more advanced. It is the same in all sports. If you watch the older basketball or football champions, they would be destroyed by the smarter guys of today. There is just so much more little thigns and nuances that boxers are taught these days that were missed back then. The guys are just all around better. I would bet my house on Tyson, Frazier, or Foreman giving little Marciano one hell of a beat down. He is extremely overrated. If you can't see it from his fights, I feel sorry for your misconceptions.
RoccoMarciano said:
I'm not doubting you as an expert, Henry. I just think you are a little harder on Marciano than need be at times.
Like I said, there some people that are harder on Rocky then I am. This is just one of them.
bill1234 said:
Tell that to the guys that fought him. LaStarza said he's a lot harder to hit than he looks, and its true. If you watch on high def real close, over and over (like I have) a lot of punches miss only by an inch. Again, qualty of film has a lot to do with it. If they had the same quality film as they do now, unfortunately, modern boxing would be destroyed.
Here's what one opponent had to say about Rocky:

An Interview with Roland LaStarza the Former Golden Gloves champ and heavyweight contender

On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision. "The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."
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RoccoMarciano said:
I don't know I ever stated PBF as being an expert.

Tyson, Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano were all made for each other in the ring. To come out and say Tyson would "own" Marciano may be a bit of a stretch. Marciano had an iron chin and would likely walk through some of Tyson's best - with a possible brief KD along the way.

My problem with some modern day people is that some think Marciano is nothing more than a pushover... that's hardly the case in reality.
I never said Rocky was a pushover BUT he never went against the BIG punchers like Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Tyson, etc. Louis was a Great puncher but he was well past his prime when he fought Rocky. Moore holds the all-time record for KO's BUT he was in his late 30's PLUS, he had a KO percentage of approx. 60% (131 out of 220), and that was against mostly Middleweights and Light Heavyweights.

AND if you say that Tyson took 4 rounds to take an old Holmes out, then what about Rocky taking out Moore. He had to go 9 rounds to do that, and was dropped by Moore. I would have to say, Holmes at that age and time was better then Moore at the same age and time.

Remember both Holmes and Moore were 38 years old when they fought Tyson and Rocky.
bill1234 said:
Marciano held up LaStarza in the rematch. He could have finished him in the 6th, but he decided to carry him, to beat him, because LaStarza called him punch drunk. LaStarza thanked the ref for stopping it.

That's very funny Bill, Rocky never carried anyone.
bill1234 said:
He did to LaStarza. Its pretty obvious. I guess you didn't notice the way he layed off of LaStarza when he was hurt, or the way he abnormaly didn't go all out when LaStarza was on the ropes? Rocky wanted to punish Roland, and he did. It pushed him over the limit when Roland called him punch drunk. He was thrown into a rage, and carried Roland to punish him, to make him pay. It was very unusual for Marciano.

On Rocky TV show "Main Event" he never said that. It wasn't in Rocky to carry anyone. He wanted to get the KO as fast as he could, and LaStarza wasn't any different. If he saw the opening he would try to finish it.

Here's a report of that bout:

In the first six rounds LaStarza outboxed Marciano and Rocky got away with almost every foul in the book. In the seventh he took control and was hitting hard. LaStarzas nose was bloody and he had a cut under the right eye. In the 11th Rocky threw a right to the jaw and a sweeping hook followed by a right and a hook. LaStarza was down. Although he managed to beat the count, the referee stopped the fight only seconds later.

Here's another one:

The rematch! LaStarza had never let up on his claim that he had won their first fight, and to make matters worse, he was quoted as saying that Marciano must be punch drunk from all the blows he had been taking. This infuriated Rocky, and he told those close to him that he would make LaStarza regret his words.
Roland's record had gone to 54-3 and until this fight he had never been knocked out. Marciano was at 44-0.
The fight started out with LaStarza frustrating Marciano with his clever style and his well executed combinations. He moved away from The Rock's attacks and slid along the ropes, proving to be what many, including Marciano, called "The best defensive fighter of the heavyweight division." When Rocky would get him momentarily pinned, he resorted to what Ali would later dub, "The rope-a-dope". Finally, a frustrated and worried Marciano was told by his trainer Charley Goldman, "Bang his arms until he brings them down."
From then on, Rocky savagely beat LaStarza's arms and upper body, until huge hematomas began appearing on the forearms. By the 10th round, Roland could barely lift his gloves above his shoulders. In the 11th, Marciano battered him terribly, knocking him down and through the ropes before the referee stopped the slaughter. LaStarza had chipped bones in his elbows and ruptured blood vessals that turned to hardened clots in his forearms and had to have surgery to repair the damage.

Before the bout was stopped, 1 judge had it even, another one had Rocky ahead by 2 points and the referee had him ahead by 4. So the bout was fairly close if you go by the score cards, so why would Rocky take that chance.

I did read about how Roland called Rocky punch drunk, and Rocky didn't like it and wanted to hurt Roland, BUT he would never carry him.
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