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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Should this be the called the 1953 rematch that never happened?

JJC
 

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Walcott mistimed the count. Notice he was getting up on 10. Marciano lunged at him with a left hook, and had a short, hiddedn right behind it, and the right put Walcott down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
niko said:
Not 100% sure what you mean.

The "fight" that never happened was the second Clay Liston match.
Did you see the fight, or had you seen the tape?

It didn't last long Marciano ko'd Walcott in the first round.

The fight can be seen at youtube.

I have the tape of their first fight.

But I had not seem the tape of the rematch until today.

I didn't mean by what I said that I think it was a fixed fight.

What I meant was that I don't believe that Walcott came to fight that night.

Stop action was used on the tape of the fight, and Walcott was still down at the referee's ten count. His left glove on was still touching the canavas at the count of ten.

Marciano dropped Walcott with a right, and in now having seen the tape, in my opinion Walcott chose to stay down.

Watch the tape and see what you think.

Walcott had made a somewhat big to do about it somewhat in the ring that night, but I believe it was all theater just putting on an act.

Also though unrelated to it I noticed and attention was called to it that Walcott had worn his trunks very high. Too high I'd say, in fact.

Sometimes a guy would do that when he was facing a really hard puncher.

Its was a trick used by some if they are fighting a guy that really hits hard.

If a fighter wears his trunks too high some punches to the body may get wrongly counted as a low blow that really wasn't a below the belt punch, that's why they do it. Its to get some kind of an edge or advantage in a fight is why some would do that if facing a really hard puncher.

I saw it interesing that in their first fight Walcott didn'nt wear his trunks high. But he sure did in the rematch I can sure tell you that I did know. Too high in fact.

Now after having seen the tape I'm convinced that in the rematch when Walcott got knocked down he just chose to stay down that's all.

Of course, as it turned out that was Walcott's last fight he retired after the rematch with Rocky Marciano.

JJC
 

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JCC said:
Did you see the fight, or had you seen the tape?
JJC

I'm leaking out how old I am here,but believe it or not I seen it on TV when I was a very young boy.I remember being very disapointed at the ending. I was for Walcott to win because Marciano KO'd one of my heros and one of the most popular sporting stars ever THE BROWN BOMBER.
It took me awhile to become a Marciano fan.Then Rocky retired well before I became a adult.I appreciated Marciano much more later,just like many things it takes a while before they sink in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Going down menory lane . . .

niko said:

I'm leaking out how old I am here, but believe it or not I seen it on TV when I was a very young boy.
Of course, you know when the fight was held. But I just mention this for some readers that may be youngsters who may not know.

The Marciano-Walcott rematch was held in Chicago on May 15th 1953.

I may like you had also saw the fight on television. But in my case I would have been too young to remember it.

I was born to my parents in FORT WORTH, Texas (my hometown) on June 19th 1951. If I had seen it I would have been only two, very near three years old at the time of the rematch between Marciano and Walcott.

Its possible that I could have seen the fight for my family told me that I grew up watching the fights much for reasons my father was a fighter and often his fights as well as others in both the amatuer and professional ranks were regularly televisioned here in those days.

In the early 1950s in popularity boxing as sport then was the most popular national sport here in Amercia, second in popularity to only baseball at the time.

My father was boxing amatuer at that time and had won the state featherweight and later lightweight state titles a number of times and was a hometown favorite here often his fights were the main events on cards here and usually won near all his fights by way of knockouts. I do remember seeing some of his fights here on television when I was a kid.

There are somethings I can remember a little about in the early 1950s despite the fact I was so young at that time.

.

THE MARCIANO-WALCOTT REMATCH

When Rocky Marciano entered the ring in Chicago on the night of the fight he was the overwhelming favorite to retain his title.

The odds were about 3-1, although the Chicago bookies reported very little betting on the fight.

Most reporters couldn't see how Marciano could lose; in a prefight Assoicated Press poll, 34 of 36 picked the Rock to win.

Marciano had beaten Walcott before of course, and had taken the heavyweight title from Walcott in their first fight the year before in 1952, and Rocky entered this fight with the confidence of a champion, and most important --- he was now facing in the rematch an even older, one more year older Jersey Joe than in their first fight the year before.

There's an old saying in boxing,"they never come back!"

Although eight former heavyweight champions had by that time tryed to retain their titles but none ever did, and the boxing experts were certian that Walcott would be the ninth to fail in the quest.

The rematch didn't draw as big as it had in their first fight, only 13, 266 fans turned out for the fight --- which was by far short from what the turn out was in their first fight.

You say you watched the fight when you were a kid.

You watched it on NBC, NBC had nationally televised the Marciano-Walcott rematch.

This fight was due to be a classic fight! Just as first fight had been but it turned out to be a dud. This is why I want to say that the Marciano-Walcott rematch was a classic fight that never happened.

I wish sometimes that I could have been older, and to have begun my amatuer boxing career in the 1950s instead of the 1960s, much for reasons it was the 1950s when boxing was at its peak in popularity and there was more over all talent in the weight divisions at that time. I would have liked to have fought in that era.

I often hear the old stories from my father of how it was in boxing in those days, and also from older guys friend's of father who fought in both the amatuer and professional ranks in the 1950s, and I've never gotten tired of hearing all their old stories that was a great time in boxing.

niko said:

I remember being very disapointed at the ending.

I was for Walcott to win because Marciano KO'd one of my heroes,and one of the most popular sporting stars ever THE BROWN BOMBER.

It took me awhile to become a Marciano fan.
Your sentiments were the same as most other fight fans at that time.

niko said:

Then Rocky retired well before I became a adult.

I appreciated Marciano much more later, just like
many things it takes a while before they sink in.
The 1950s were the happy days!

As for the rematch! After I watched the tape the other day, I was convinced that when Marciano knocked Walcott down in the first round, that Walcott chose to stay down that's all. He could have beaten the count. I think being knocked out by Rocky in the 13th round of their first fight convinced Jersey Joe he could not beat the Rock.

Jersey Joe was the oldest heavyweight fighter to ever hold the title at the time he held the title.

Of course, much later came George Foreman who became the oldest to ever hold the heavyweight title in boxing history. But before Foreman, Walcott had been the oldest to ever hold the heavyweight title.


JJC
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Going down menory lane ... the early 1950s

As for the rematch something I came to see interesting was the first round consisted of Marciano chasing and Walcott retreating and then clinching, and with less than a minute remaining in the round, Marciano caught Walcott with a short left hook that seemed to just kind of brushed Walcott's cheek followed by a right from Marciano that from appearances at least didn't appear to have been all that devastating a punch, particularly by the television veiwers.

Maybe it was a knockout punch, or maybe it wasn't a knockout punch.

But the belief that it wasn't was confirmed when Walcott, after landing flat on his back, with his heels in the air, pulled himself into a sitting position at the count of two.

As the referee Frank Sikora began the count, Walcott just sat there, his knees in front of him, his right hand hanging on the middle rope, and his left hand resting on the canvas. He turned his head toward his corner and then stared back in front of him, and he didn't try to move or any thing, and that was the strangest thing that he just sat there like that.

Concerning it one sports writer (Red Smith) at the time wrote saying that Walcott looked "like a darkly brooding Budda, thinking slow and beautiful thoughts."

To another sport writer (Jesse Abramson), at the time wrote that he just sat there "like an old man, resting in the park on the grass and reveiwing his past life."

At the count of eight, a stunned Rocky Marciano said to himself, "This guy's not getting up." He did --- but the instant after the referee Sikora had already counted him out at ten, but it was too late, he was already counted out and the fight was over.

The fans in Chicago stadium who thought that Walcott would get up, were confused. Was the fight really over? When referee Sikora waved his arms and Marciano's handlers leaped in the ring, they knew it was over. And they booed.

Meanwhile, back in the ring, Walcott walked calmly and steadily to his corner. As the catcalls continued to rain over Chicago Stadium, he did an about face. He decided to pick up the theme of his handler Bocchicchio, who in the aftermath kept yelling at the offical timekeeper, "He didn't get ten." Walcott, too, started to show rage. He shot an amazed look a Sikora, and banged his gloves togather, and then flung them down in digust, and stomped his feet. He looked like he was ready to cry.

When Sikora walked over to him, Walcott said to him, "Nine. You counted nine."

Sikora shook his head. "No, Joe," he relied. "You got a full ten count, the fights over."

JJC
 

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JCC said:
As for the rematch something I came to see interesting was the first round consisted of Marciano chasing and Walcott retreating and then clinching, and with less than a minute remaining in the round, Marciano caught Walcott with a short left hook that seemed to just kind of brushed Walcott's cheek followed by a right from Marciano that from appearances at least didn't appear to have been all that devastating a punch, particularly by the television veiwers.

Maybe it was a knockout punch, or maybe it wasn't a knockout punch.

But the belief that it wasn't was confirmed when Walcott, after landing flat on his back, with his heels in the air, pulled himself into a sitting position at the count of two.

As the referee Frank Sikora began the count, Walcott just sat there, his knees in front of him, his right hand hanging on the middle rope, and his left hand resting on the canvas. He turned his head toward his corner and then stared back in front of him, and he didn't try to move or any thing, and that was the strangest thing that he just sat there like that.

Concerning it one sports writer (Red Smith) at the time wrote saying that Walcott looked "like a darkly brooding Budda, thinking slow and beautiful thoughts."

To another sport writer (Jesse Abramson), at the time wrote that he just sat there "like an old man, resting in the park on the grass and reveiwing his past life."

At the count of eight, a stunned Rocky Marciano said to himself, "This guy's not getting up." He did --- but the instant after the referee Sikora had already counted him out at ten, but it was too late, he was already counted out and the fight was over.

The fans in Chicago stadium who thought that Walcott would get up, were confused. Was the fight really over? When referee Sikora waved his arms and Marciano's handlers leaped in the ring, they knew it was over. And they booed.

Meanwhile, back in the ring, Walcott walked calmly and steadily to his corner. As the catcalls continued to rain over Chicago Stadium, he did an about face. He decided to pick up the theme of his handler Bocchicchio, who in the aftermath kept yelling at the offical timekeeper, "He didn't get ten." Walcott, too, started to show rage. He shot an amazed look a Sikora, and banged his gloves togather, and then flung them down in digust, and stomped his feet. He looked like he was ready to cry.

When Sikora walked over to him, Walcott said to him, "Nine. You counted nine."

Sikora shook his head. "No, Joe," he relied. "You got a full ten count, the fights over."

JJC
Yep, that about sums it up, nothing but a miscount on Walcotts part.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
JCC said:

Although Walcott got a fair shake, the essential mystery remained.

Why didn't he get up?

What happened to Jersey Joe?

And these theories abounded:

1. Jersey Joe got a fair shake.

2. Jersey Joe misculated his rise.

3. Jersey Joe was knocked out.

4. Jersey Joe quit.
I had to change some of what I said in my last post for I didn't say it all completely right. Although it came to be seem that Walcott got a fair shake, the essential mystery remained.

Why did he just sit there after being knocked down by Marciano ?

Why didn't he get up?

What happened to Jersey Joe?

At the time there theories abounded:

1. Jersey Joe took a dive.

2. Jersey Joe miscalcutaled his rise.

3. Jersey Joe got bad advice from his corner.

4. Jersey Joe was knocked out.

5. Jersey Joe quit.

Let's take a look at it all beginning with the first theory.

Jersey Joe took a dive?

Some immediately after the fight was over suspected that the fight was foxed. Bocchicchio (Walcott's manager) was known to have some shady connections. Was it possible that he had lined up a sweetheart deal for Walcott to take a dive? Most at the time felt not! As Tommy Loughran (an ex-fighter) at the time had pointed out, if the fight had been a tank job, Jersey Joe would have assumed another posture. He'd have gone down flat on his back or stomach, agonized it a bit, and listened to the full count.


Jersey Joe miscalculated his rise?

Another theory held at the time was that Walcott wanted to get up and tried to get up but merely miscalculated his rise. If so, in being the very experienced fighter he was he made a rookie mistake. An experienced fighter would have gotton himself up om one knee so he could spring up at the count of seven or eight. Walcott made no such move and gave himself no margin of error by attempting to rise from a sitting postion. Perhaps Walcott, in the confusion of the moment, lost track of the count. To some reporters at the time. Walcott said that he got up at seven; to others, he said that he got up at nine. And about that one reporter at the time (Red Smith) said about this Walcott said jokingly: "He can't count his years; he can't even count to ten."

Jersey Joe got bad advice from his corner?

While he was sitting in the ring, after being knocked down by Marciano, Walcott was glancing, at least part of the time, toward his corner, where Bocckichio (his manager) was frantically waving with both hands for him to stay down. He may also have yelled instructions at Walcott, although it is unclear whether Walcott could have heard them from across the ring. Equally important, perhaps Walcott's manager could hear the referee's count from across the ring. Bocchicchio later said, "Walcott was O.K., he was watching me for instructions. When I thought the count had reached eight, I signaled for Joe to get up, which you saw he did with no trouble." The miscalculation, then, may have been Bocchicchio's, not Walcott's.

Jersey Joe was knocked out?

At first, most weren't overly impressed by Marciano's short punch the short right that dropped Walcott in the ring. A notable exception was the referee Sikora, who said about it, "Don't let any body tell you Walcott didn't get hit . . . . It may not have shown on television, but believe me I was the closest man seeing that punch and oit was a knockout punch." After they had a chance to view the films of the fight, and several reporters agreed. "It was there. It was perfect," praised Matt Ring. "It was a real good punch, it was inside," Marciano said. "I got a lot of beef behind it, and it hung there on his chin." A few days after the fight, even Florio (Walcott's trainer) admitted that his fighter had been hit hard. Perhaps the punch was hard enough to account for Walcott's sitdown in the ring.

Jersey Joe quit?

Many at the time that Walcott was in a poor mental state going into the fight. As Fiorio (Walcott's trainer) later confirmed, "Joe froze up on us in the last twenty-four hours ... I tried all day to get him to talk fight --- tactics, punches, anything, ... but he wouldn't talk. The guy was through before he went into the ring." In the ring that night in Chicago, once Marciano knocked him down, perhaps all the memories of the Phildelphia punch eight months earlier when Marciano had knocked him out in the thirteenth round in their first fight came back --- perhaps Walcott gave up instead of getting up. About this return fight between Marciano and Walcott after the fight, former champion Jimmy Braddock said, "The bum quit."

In the end, the answer wasn't clear.

Jack Carberry of the Denver Post at the time said, "One man knows the true answer. That's Jersey Joe Walcott."

A month after the fight, Walcott was still claiming he got a fast count.

Years later, Walcott changed his story, claiming that he blacked out late in the count.

The mystery, then remains to this day, very much unresolved.

After recently to have watched the tape of this fight at youtube ... and having veiwed that tape several times I remained wholly convinced that Jersey Joe had just quit after he got knocked down, he chose to just stay down in my opinion.

Watch the tape of that fight at youtube and see it what conclusion you come to about it.

JJC
 

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bill1234 said:
Yep, that about sums it up, nothing but a miscount on Walcotts part.
Did you happen to see the bout between George Chuvallo and Jerry Quarry? Talk about missing the count.Quarry really miscalculated that one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Although it came to be seen that Walcott got a fair shake, the essential mystery remained.

Why did he just sit there after being knocked down by Marciano ?

Why didn't he get up?

What happened to Jersey Joe?

At the time these theories abounded:

1. Jersey Joe took a dive.

2. Jersey Joe miscalcutaled his rise.

3. Jersey Joe got bad advice from his corner.

4. Jersey Joe was knocked out.

5. Jersey Joe quit.

Let's take a look at it all beginning with the first theory.

Jersey Joe took a dive?

Some immediately after the fight was over suspected that the fight was foxed. Bocchicchio (Walcott's manager) was known to have some shady connections. Was it possible that he had lined up a sweetheart deal for Walcott to take a dive? Most at the time felt not! As Tommy Loughran (an ex-fighter) at the time had pointed out, if the fight had been a tank job, Jersey Joe would have assumed another posture. He'd have gone down flat on his back or stomach, agonized it a bit, and listened to the full count.


Jersey Joe miscalculated his rise?

Another theory held at the time was that Walcott wanted to get up and tried to get up but merely miscalculated his rise. If so, in being the very experienced fighter he was he made a rookie mistake. An experienced fighter would have gotton himself up om one knee so he could spring up at the count of seven or eight. Walcott made no such move and gave himself no margin of error by attempting to rise from a sitting postion. Perhaps Walcott, in the confusion of the moment, lost track of the count. To some reporters at the time. Walcott said that he got up at seven; to others, he said that he got up at nine. And about that one reporter at the time (Red Smith) said about this Walcott said jokingly: "He can't count his years; he can't even count to ten."

Jersey Joe got bad advice from his corner?

While he was sitting in the ring, after being knocked down by Marciano, Walcott was glancing, at least part of the time, toward his corner, where Bocckichio (his manager) was frantically waving with both hands for him to stay down. He may also have yelled instructions at Walcott, although it is unclear whether Walcott could have heard them from across the ring. Equally important, perhaps Walcott's manager could hear the referee's count from across the ring. Bocchicchio later said, "Walcott was O.K., he was watching me for instructions. When I thought the count had reached eight, I signaled for Joe to get up, which you saw he did with no trouble." The miscalculation, then, may have been Bocchicchio's, not Walcott's.

Jersey Joe was knocked out?

At first, most weren't overly impressed by Marciano's short punch the short right that dropped Walcott in the ring. A notable exception was the referee Sikora, who said about it, "Don't let any body tell you Walcott didn't get hit . . . . It may not have shown on television, but believe me I was the closest man seeing that punch and oit was a knockout punch." After they had a chance to view the films of the fight, and several reporters agreed. "It was there. It was perfect," praised Matt Ring. "It was a real good punch, it was inside," Marciano said. "I got a lot of beef behind it, and it hung there on his chin." A few days after the fight, even Florio (Walcott's trainer) admitted that his fighter had been hit hard. Perhaps the punch was hard enough to account for Walcott's sitdown in the ring.

Jersey Joe quit?

Many at the time that Walcott was in a poor mental state going into the fight. As Fiorio (Walcott's trainer) later confirmed, "Joe froze up on us in the last twenty-four hours ... I tried all day to get him to talk fight --- tactics, punches, anything, ... but he wouldn't talk. The guy was through before he went into the ring." In the ring that night in Chicago, once Marciano knocked him down, perhaps all the memories of the Phildelphia punch eight months earlier when Marciano had knocked him out in the thirteenth round in their first fight came back --- perhaps Walcott gave up instead of getting up. About this return fight between Marciano and Walcott after the fight, former champion Jimmy Braddock said, "The bum quit."

In the end, the answer wasn't clear.

Jack Carberry of the Denver Post at the time said, "One man knows the true answer. That's Jersey Joe Walcott."

A month after the fight, Walcott was still claiming he got a fast count.

Years later, Walcott changed his story, claiming that he blacked out late in the count.

The mystery, then remains to this day, very much unresolved.

After recently to have watched the tape of this fight at youtube ... and having veiwed that tape several times I'm convinced that Jersey Joe had just quit after he got knocked down, he chose to just stay down.

JJC
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
The mystery remains unsolved to this day.

In the aftermath of the fight, one fact was clear: Walcott's reputation was in tatters, at least for the time being at that time it was, any way.

One sport writer at the time Matt Ring claimed: "Walcott sacrificed the prestige and sentimental favor he had built up with many gallent fights over the past eight years."

Joe Bostic of the New York Amsterdam News said it was "the most disgusting exhibition of craven gutlessness in the history of the heavyweight championship divison."

Walcott's performance stood in striking contrast to his gallant stand in the first fight with Marciano, when he had gone out on his shield.

And another sports writer at the time, Red Smith said about Walcott he was going out in "total disgrace.
".

"It is hard to believe he would deliberately pass from the fistic scene ignominiously," mused Arch Ward of the Chicago Tribune. But he did.

And after the rematch with Marciano, Jersey Joe Walcott would never fight again.

Walcott's performance was also responsible for the heavy critism directed at the fight.

Like the fans in Chicago Staduim, fans from around the country were disappointed and angry, jamming the switchboards of their local newspapers to complain about the fight.

The press joined the cresendo as well.

Baltimore sportwriter Jesse Linthicum claimed that the "bout set boxing back ten years."

Philadelphia sportswriter Lance McCurly charged that the fight had been so "naueating and disgusting and unbelievable" that a congressional investigation of the entire fight game was in order.

New York sportswriter Bill Corum simply noted, "This fight, if it could be called that, was really was bad. Bad in itself. Bad for boxing. Bad for sports. Bad for this country, which is a sports loving county, and people had a right to demand better of Walcott than he gave them last night."

Lost in all the speculation about Walcott's actions and criticism of Walcott and the fight was Rocky Marciano.

In the ring, Marciano shared the crowd's amazement and disbelief in the sudden end. Had he really won that easily, that quickly?

After Marciano's hand was raised in victory and he started to leave the ring, he heard some boos from the crowd.

The boos were for the fiasco of the fight, but they still tarnished his successful defence of the title he had taken from Walcott in their first fight.

Later, an angry Marciano would say of Walcott, "He should have gotten up; I would have."

JJC
 
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