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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have Holmes ranked @ 4, but figured it would be interesting make an argument for him to be rated in the top 3. Ok, here it goes:

Larry Holmes in his prime had handspeed that could make a welterweight jealous. He had the best jab of all time, and he had a hard right cross/overhand right. His uppercuts were lethal and kept you guessing. He had incredible recooperative powers, rising off of the floor from Shavers hardest right hand, and Snipes right hand that came from hell. Both of whitch were some of the hardest shots landed in boxing. When he got up, he was hurt beyond beleif, and yet was fighting like he was before the knock down 30 seconds later. Stuff like that just shows how hard he was to KO. He had 20 succesful defences over the time of 7 years, until losing in a disputed decision to Michael Spinnks, and losing in an even more disputed rematch. He mad a quick come back in 1988 to fight Tyson for 3.8 mil, but proved that age and ring rust had finally caught up to him. In his next come back he destroyed a prime Ray Mercer at the age of 42, and fought a close fight with a prime Holyfield at the age 42, almost 43. Then in 1995, at the age of 45, almost 46 he fought and lost an extremely close decision, losing only by 1 point on two score cards to a prime, and fit Olivar McCall. Then in 1997 he fought and lost yet another disputed decision against Brian Neilson for the IBO title at the age of 47, going on 48. Holmes arguably only truly lost twice out of the 6 losses on his record of 69-6-0, 44KO's.
 

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he's underated but not top 5.

lennox lewis had the best jab of all time.

holmes recovery wasn't as great as you mnake out either bill, tyson had him on queer street then never let him off the hook.

underestimated by most, overated by bill.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
How do you figure Lewis had the best jab of all time? It wasn't as hard, nor as fast or effective as Holmes's. How do you figure he's not top 5? He has plenty of achievemeents, and he does great Head-Head.
 

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Ok bill i got something for ya. So bill only truly lost twice in his career to you. And one has easily got to be mike tyson, who is the only man to ko holmes and what a ko it was. Yet you dont even rank mike tyson. Talk about bias and contradicition.
 

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TysonJones said:
Ok bill i got something for ya. So bill only truly lost twice in his career to you. And one has easily got to be mike tyson, who is the only man to ko holmes and what a ko it was. Yet you dont even rank mike tyson. Talk about bias and contradicition.

You may wish to rephrase your second sentence.. I'll stay out of it beyond that. :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
TysonJones said:
Ok bill i got something for ya. So bill only truly lost twice in his career to you. And one has easily got to be mike tyson, who is the only man to ko holmes and what a ko it was. Yet you dont even rank mike tyson. Talk about bias and contradicition.
I said arguably, doesn't mean thats what I beleive. IMO if all desicions were fair, his record would be 72-3-0, 44KO's. I don't rank Tyson because you need to judge a whole career, not one gleaming moment of it. Tyson may have been the youngest to win the title, but he was also one of the youngest to lose the title. When he was 23 he lost the title. Holmes wasn't even pro at age 23. Counting Holmes's loss to Tyson is like counting Ali's loss to Holmes, or Louis's loss to Marciano, just Tyson was the only one not to show sympathy, and instead of holding back a little, and more sparring him than anything, he just went all out. IMO it shows just how great Holmes's chin and heart was for taking Tyson's hardest clean shots for 4 rounds.
 

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I'm with you Bill, Don't forget the near knockdown from Witherspoon and how he recouped from that too. Take away the personality difference, and he was a better fighter than Ali.

Forget the Tyson loss it was insignificant to his career.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rayman said:
Forget the Tyson loss it was insignificant to his career.
Exactly. Its just a gitch on his record caused by love of money.
 

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Rayman said:
I'm with you Bill, Don't forget the near knockdown from Witherspoon and how he recouped from that too. Take away the personality difference, and he was a better fighter than Ali.

Forget the Tyson loss it was insignificant to his career.
I'm curious as to your definition of Ali's personality traits. I'm mainly wondering how, in your view, he (Ali) dealt with opponents - personality speaking, of course.
 

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I am referring to Ali's larger than life persona, and the physc job he put on most opponents, before and during the fight, not to mention the media/fans. Holmes had none of this ability and was generally disliked and disrespected by both.

Ali may have had better speed, but Holmes had better power. They were at least equals. If only Holmes told everybody he was the greatest of all time before Ali did he would have been. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
LOL, I don't know about that, but people would definately give him more respect.
 

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bill1234 said:
How do you figure Lewis had the best jab of all time? It wasn't as hard, nor as fast or effective as Holmes's. How do you figure he's not top 5? He has plenty of achievemeents, and he does great Head-Head.
lewis jab had wayyyyy more pop in it.
 

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Holmes had a great jab but like the HW's of today he had no competition. Yes he fought Ali when he was shot and Norton when he was shot but never anybody great in his prime. I would give Jerry Quarry in his prime a shot of KOing Holmes. I can name atleast 5 guys in the era before that would beat Holmes. Ali, Foreman, Norton, Frazier and Shavers and maybe Lyle. Holmes was great for his era but in the all make up of boxing he is a top 12 to 15.
 

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Rayman said:
I am referring to Ali's larger than life persona, and the physc job he put on most opponents, before and during the fight, not to mention the media/fans. Holmes had none of this ability and was generally disliked and disrespected by both.

Ali may have had better speed, but Holmes had better power. They were at least equals. If only Holmes told everybody he was the greatest of all time before Ali did he would have been. LOL
the ali who beat clevland williams would not have lost to any HW in history, the hand speed, angles and footwork he showed in that fight will never be seen in a boxing ring again.

larry was never at that level, its quite funny how people try to compare the rest to that.

most guy use the ali from his second title reign as the measuring stick to all HW's when he wasn't even 80% then of what he was from winning the title against liston to his last fight before being banned against zora.

the ali from 63 to 67 is by far the greatest HW of all time, larry holmes isnt fit to hold that guys jock strap!
 

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Vitali Rules said:
Holmes had a great jab but like the HW's of today he had no competition. Yes he fought Ali when he was shot and Norton when he was shot but never anybody great in his prime. I would give Jerry Quarry in his prime a shot of KOing Holmes. I can name atleast 5 guys in the era before that would beat Holmes. Ali, Foreman, Norton, Frazier and Shavers and maybe Lyle. Holmes was great for his era but in the all make up of boxing he is a top 12 to 15.
holmes beat shavers twice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Vitali Rules said:
Holmes had a great jab but like the HW's of today he had no competition. Yes he fought Ali when he was shot and Norton when he was shot but never anybody great in his prime. I would give Jerry Quarry in his prime a shot of KOing Holmes. I can name atleast 5 guys in the era before that would beat Holmes. Ali, Foreman, Norton, Frazier and Shavers and maybe Lyle. Holmes was great for his era but in the all make up of boxing he is a top 12 to 15.
Norton wasn't shot at all in their fight. He may have been 35, but he fought just as well, and was just as fast and strong as he was in 1973 against Ali. Larry fought better comp than Tyson, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Lewis, and today. Larry beat a prime Shavers twice, and only lost one round, and that was because Shavers landed the hardest right he ever through right on Larry's jaw, which dropped Larry, and Larry survived the rest of the round. Larry has been challenging Foreman since 1976, and George ducked him. Larry gave a prime Holyfield a run for his money, and arguably beat McCall (I gave it to McCall, but you could make a case for Holmes). A prime Holmes beats Quarry 10/10, Larry was sparring Frazier in and giving Frazier hell in 1973, right when Larry turned pro. Larry was Ali's top sparring partner from 1971-1974. Larry left because he was starting to beat Ali, and Ali was going all out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
TommyGunn said:
lewis jab had wayyyyy more pop in it.
Nope. Watch Larry's fight with Ocasio. He knocked Ocasio down, almost out with a jab. Also watch Larry's fights with Berbick, Shavers (both) and Cooney. Larry's jab was noticeably hurting them. In Larry's comeback it was just as hard, but not as fast, and it was more noticeable on how hard it was. Because he wasn't dancing away, he was standing still, and you could see how it was knocking them back wards, and it was starting to hurt them.
 

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Vitali Rules said:
Holmes had a great jab but like the HW's of today he had no competition. Yes he fought Ali when he was shot and Norton when he was shot but never anybody great in his prime. I would give Jerry Quarry in his prime a shot of KOing Holmes. I can name atleast 5 guys in the era before that would beat Holmes. Ali, Foreman, Norton, Frazier and Shavers and maybe Lyle. Holmes was great for his era but in the all make up of boxing he is a top 12 to 15.
Jerry Quarry are you kidding? Ok you can disagree with me but you don't have to get insulting! :laugh: He would have handled all those guys, no problem.
 

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TommyGunn said:
the ali who beat clevland williams would not have lost to any HW in history, the hand speed, angles and footwork he showed in that fight will never be seen in a boxing ring again.

larry was never at that level, its quite funny how people try to compare the rest to that.

most guy use the ali from his second title reign as the measuring stick to all HW's when he wasn't even 80% then of what he was from winning the title against liston to his last fight before being banned against zora.

the ali from 63 to 67 is by far the greatest HW of all time, larry holmes isnt fit to hold that guys jock strap!
We'll, can't argue with his first career, never saw any of it except Liston. My observations are with the second, and I'll maintain my position on that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Holmes dominated his era until he was 35, almost 36, then he lost it in 2 disputed decisions against Michael Spinks. Holmes ruled it for 7 years, and rarely had a close fight. Only 3, and one of which he had the flu, and the other 2 were when he was past his prime.
 
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