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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
THE List

Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Mike Tyson
Sam Langford
Evander Holyfield
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Jack Dempsey

Criteria

For notable wins I look at whether or not the opponent was STILL a top contender and was not yet completely washed up. My defintion of top contender is if the fighter was still able to beat some of the best out there. If a “top contender” never beat any or more than 1 other top contender out there, I don't consider a win over such a fighter to be notable. Wins over such hyped fighters who never amounted to anything don't cut it for these rankings. I also ignore losses at the very end of a fighter's career if he was losing to sub par opponents, unless the opponent was so bad that the loss was avenged (meaning old or not the fighter had no business losing to this opponent). I even ignore losses at the beginning of a career if the fighter is still too green. For some of the really old time fighters like Johnson and Langford, if there was evidence they were robbed of fights in their youth due to racism I also ignore them. If a fight had a questionable outcome that I know of, I list it (wins and losses included). I keep a record of how many times a fighter has beat or lost to an opponent in parenthesis. I don't consider wins notable against sub par fighters but I do consider losses to sub par fighters notable. All questionable wins and losses are also notable.
I orginally created this list with only an idea of where fighters should be, then after finishing listing the important fights each fighter had I moved some people around. If there's anything I made a mistake on in the list below or some things I left out in a fighter's resume let me know.




Jack Johnson

Notable Wins:
Sam McVea (x3)
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns
Stanley Ketchel
James J. Jeffries
Notable Losses:
Marvin Hart
Jess Willard


Joe Louis

Notable Wins:
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Max Schmeling
Billy Conn (x2)
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Notable Losses:
Max Schmeling


Larry Holmes

Notable Wins:
Earnie Shavers (x2)
Ken Norton
Mike Weaver (x2)
Trevor Berbick
Leon Spinks
Gerry Cooney
Tim Witherspoon
Marvis Frazier
James 'Bonecrusher' Smith (x2)
Carl 'The Truth' Williams
Ray Mercer
Notable Losses:
Michael Spinks (x2)
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Oliver McCall
Questionable Wins:
Tim Witherspoon
Questionable Losses:
Michael Spinks


George Foreman

Notable Wins:
Joe Frazier (x2)
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Gerry Cooney
Michael Moorer
*ALL ending in KO
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali
Jimmy Young
Evander Holyfield
Tommy Morrison
Questionable Losses:
Shannon Briggs


Lennox Lewis

Notable Wins:
Mike Weaver
Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
Tony Tucker
Frank Bruno
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Andrew Golota
Shannon Briggs
Evander Holyfield
David Tua
Hasim Rahman
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
Notable Losses:
Oliver McCall
Hasim Rahman
*ALL ending in KO


Harry Wills

Notable Wins:
Joe Jeannette (x2)
Sam Langford (x13)
Sam McVea (x2)
Bill Tate (x4)
Notable Losses:
Sam McVea (x2)
Sam Langford (x2)
Battling Jim Johnson


Mike Tyson

Notable Wins:
Marvis Frazier
Trevor Berbick
James 'Bonecrusher' Smith
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Larry Holmes
Tony Tubbs
Michael Spinks
Frank Bruno
Carl 'The Truth' Williams
Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (x2)
Bruce Seldon
Andrew Golota
Notable Losses:
James 'Buster' Douglas
Evander Holyfield (x2)
Lennox Lewis
Questionable Losses:
Buster Douglas (Long 10 count)


Muhammad Ali

Notable Wins:
George Chuvalo (x2)
Sonny Liston (x2)
Floyd Patterson (x2)
Cleveland Williams
Earnie Terrel
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton (x2)
Joe Frazier (x2)
George Foreman
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
Notable Losses:
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Leon Spinks
Questionable Wins:
Sonny Liston (2nd fight)
Doug Jones
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton (All wins questionable)


Sonny Liston

Notable Wins:
Cleveland Williams (x2)
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Floyd Patterson (x2)
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2)
Questionable Losses:
Muhammad Ali


Sam Langford

Notable Wins:
Joe Jeannette (x7)
Stanley Ketchel
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Sam McVea (x6)
Harry Wills (x2)
Gunboat Smith
Bill Tate (x4)
Jeff Clark (x5)
Tiger Flowers
Notable Losses:
Dave Holly (Avenged)
Larry Temple (Avenged 3 times)
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Jack Johnson
Young Peter Jackson (Avenged 4 times)
Jim Barry (Avenged 5 times)
Sam McVea (x2)
Gunboat Smith
Harry Wills (x13)
Jeff Clark (x2)
Bill Tate (x4)
Fred Fulton (x2)


Evander Holyfield

Notable Wins:
Dwight Muhammad Qawi (x2)
Pinklon Thomas
Michael Dokes
James 'Buster' Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson (x2)
Michael Moore
John Ruiz
Hasim Rahman
Notable Losses:
Riddick Bowe (x2)
Michael Moorer
Lennox Lewis
John Ruiz
Chris Byrd


Rocky Marciano

Notable Wins:
Roland LaStarza (x2)
Rex Layne
Harry Kid Matthews
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Ezzard Charles (x2)
Don Cockell
Archie Moore
Questionable Wins:
Roland LaStarza
Ted Lowry


Joe Frazier

Notable Wins:
Eddie Machen
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2)
Bob Foster
Muhammad Ali
Notable Losses:
George Foreman (x2)
Muhammad Ali (x2)


Riddick Bowe

Notable Wins:
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tubbs
Bruce Seldon
Evander Holyfield (x2)
Michael Dokes
Buster Mathis Jr.
Larry Donald
Herbie Hide
Andrew Golota
Notable Losses:
Evander Holyfield
Questionable Wins:
Andrew Golota
Questionable Losses:
Evander Holyfield (Holyfield just never really beat Bowe to me...)


Jack Dempsey

Notable Wins:
Willie Meehan
Gunboat Smith
Fred Fulton
Bill Brennan (x2)
Jess Willard
Jack Sharkey
Notable Losses:
Fireman Jim Flynn
Willie Meehan (x2)
Gene Tunney (x2)

Questionable Wins:
Jack Sharkey (Low Blow)

Questionable Losses:
Gene Tunney (Long 10 count)
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I would have to disagree with the order that you put the list in, but overall with the fighters that you put in, good job. It is a pretty decent list.
The odds 2 people would ever agree on the order is astronomical, so I'll take the rest as a compliment.

If there's anything troubling about the resume's I posted let me know.
 

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Iron Lungs
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Great list :thumbsup:

I can tell you took some time doing this and it shows your Passion for the sport.

Just like everyone has their own order, I would change around a few names but would pretty much have the same people on the list.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Great list :thumbsup:

I can tell you took some time doing this and it shows your Passion for the sport.

Just like everyone has their own order, I would change around a few names but would pretty much have the same people on the list.
Took me a lot of time indeed...thanks.

If I was to do a top 20 Sam McVea and Joe Jeannette would be on it, which would help explain my #1 better. BUT, I already wrote a blog on why Johnson is my #1 anyways.
 

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I can agree with all the boxers you put in the top 15. I would have added James J. Jeffries. I guess you discounted Tunney and Charles because you have them as Light Heavyweights.

I think you rate Ali much too low. I gave the tape of the Doug Jones bout to several world renowned Boxing Judges and told them to look at it and tell me how they would score it. All of them had Ali winning by an average score of 7-3. some even had it 8-2.

The 2nd Norton bout, I had Ali winning, as did most experts. On the 3rd bout, my very good friend Harold Lederman had it 8-7. In their 1st match, Ali's jaw was broken very early in the bout.

Jack Johnson might have been the best defensive Heavyweight ever, BUT he was stopped several times. Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Tommy Burns and Stanley Ketchel were very small as Heavyweights and some weren't even Heavyweights, or Light Heavyweights, for that matter.

With that said, I do rate Johnson in the top 6 all-time.

I would put Ali's top Opponents, that he beat, against any other Heavyweight in history.

Boxers that Ali fought that were rated #3 or above at one time or another: I also included their record at the time they fought Ali:

1. George Foreman (CH) 40-0-0 vs.
2. Joe Frazier (CH) 30-1-0 vs.
3. Joe Frazier (CH) 32-2-0 vs.
4. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-1-0 vs.
5. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-2-0 vs.
6. Ken Norton (1-CH?) 30-1-0 vs.
7. Ken Norton (1-CH?)) 37-3-0 vs.
8. Floyd Patterson (CH) 43-4-0 vs.
9. Floyd Patterson (CH) 55-7-1 vs.
10. Jerry Quarry (1) 37-4-4 vs.
11. Jerry Quarry (1) 43-5-4 vs.
12. Oscar Bonavena (2) 46-6-1 vs.
13..Jimmy Ellis (2-CH) 30-6-0 vs.
14. Zora Folley (1) 74-7-4 vs.
15. Ernie Terrell (1-CH) 38-4-0 vs.
16. George Chuvalo (3) 34-11-2 vs.
17. George Chuvalo (3) 66-17-2 vs.
18. Ron Lyle (3) 30-2-1 vs.
19. Earnie Shavers (3) 54-5-1 vs.
20. Joe Bugner (3) 43-4-1 vs.
21. Joe Bugner (3) 51-6-1 vs.
22. Bob Foster (LH-CH) 49-5-0 vs.
23. Mac Foster (1) 28-1-0 vs.
24. Karl Mildenberger (1) 49-2-3 vs.
25. Archie Moore (LH-CH) - (1) 184-22-11 vs.
26. Jimmy Young (1) 17-4-2 vs.
27. Cleveland Williams (3) 65-5-1 vs.
28. Doug Jones (2) 21-3-1 vs.
29. Henry Cooper (2) 27-8-1 vs.
30. Henry Cooper (2) 33-11-1 vs.
31. Leon Spinks (CH) 7-0-1 vs.

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

He fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%, and 38 them were rated at the time he fought them - 62.295%. Very few Hall of Fame boxers are over 50%. Up to a couple of years ago, only Sugar Ray Leonard, Emile Griffith, Ezzard Charles and Joe Louis were over 50% and none were more then Leonard's 52.5%.

I will agree with you in that I have never seen 2 boxing experts agree on a top 10 or 15 list, and everyone has a different way of coming up with their list.
 

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Decent list, although I would change a few spots around but I have yet to see (as has been mentioned) 2 people agree 100% on a top whatever list.

My top 10 heavyweight list is:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Johnson
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

Numbers 8, 6, and 5 change frequently because I have a hard time of choosing where to put Lennox Lewis and Jack Dempsey. Just an FYI I have Ezzard Charles around 13-11, and Gene Tunney around 18-15.
 

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Back in the 1950's and 60's, most boxing experts had Dempsey as #1. In fact he was voted the Greatest boxer in the 1st half century by the sports writers of America. Several years later, they had Louis as #1 and now most people have Ali.

Its very hard to rate them.

I know Bill rates Rocky at #3, I have to disagree and I have gone over that many times.
 

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Back in the 1950's and 60's, most boxing experts had Dempsey as #1. In fact he was voted the Greatest boxer in the 1st half century by the sports writers of America. Several years later, they had Louis as #1 and now most people have Ali.

Its very hard to rate them.

I know Bill rates Rocky at #3, I have to disagree and I have gone over that many times.
What is your personal list? I have yet to see it.
 

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The list I put up on October 9th, I have every name you have in my top 10. I just rate them a little differently. I only rated Heavyweight Champions:

That's hard because of match-ups. Example:

Foreman would beat Frazier and Norton everytime, BUT he would loss to Ali and Ali would have trouble with both Frazier and Norton.

I made up this list several years ago BUT everytime I look at it, I want to make some changes. I don't know 2 boxing historians that would agree with another historian on a top 10 list.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Gene Tunney
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Mike Tyson
14. James J. Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Riddick Bowe

The only real difference is Rocky. You have him at #3 and I have him at #10.

I went by overall career, not at their prime. Like I said, if I had to make it out today, I might change a few. I believe Tyson would have beaten Marciano BUT Marciano had a better overall career, so I rate Rocky over Tyson for that reason.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think you rate Ali much too low. I gave the tape of the Doug Jones bout to several world renowned Boxing Judges and told them to look at it and tell me how they would score it. All of them had Ali winning by an average score of 7-3. some even had it 8-2.

The 2nd Norton bout, I had Ali winning, as did most experts. On the 3rd bout, my very good friend Harold Lederman had it 8-7. In their 1st match, Ali's jaw was broken very early in the bout.
I don't think Ali lost the Doug Jones fight, that's not why I listed that particular fight as a questionable win. I listed it as questionable solely because Doug Jones gave him hell....DOUG JONES. As a Heavyweight this guy would be lucky to make a top 1000 list, it was completely absurd Ali didn't clown this guy.

As for Norton, they were all damn close, and I had Norton winning 2 of the 3 personally. But I could see them all going to Norton just as easily if everyone wasn't so in love with Ali, Norton made him look extremely ordinary.

As for Ali beating George Foreman every time...it depends on who was training Foreman. Had Foreman had Angelo as a trainer at the time (which he would have him later when he went to regain the Heavyweight Championship) he would have EASILY beat Ali. Foreman only lost the fight because he was exhausted, and he was exhausted because he was fighting at a pace he could not sustain. Ali was not forcing Foreman to do ANYTHING. If he was just smart enough to take his time like he did in his old age it was an easy fight for Foreman. He underestimated Ali's defense and chin, figured he could just knock him out like everyone else. He was utterly shocked the plan wasn't working and Foreman HAD NO PLAN B. Jimmy Young is a guy Foreman maybe could have never beat, and perhaps a younger Ali, but an old Ali was not floating like a butterfly around the ring, he was a stationary target on the ropes that if Foreman understood controlled aggression he could have won practically all 15 rounds. Ali knew he only won because Foreman was an idiot, wonder why we never saw a rematch? Anyone who really believes Ali could ACTUALLY knock out George Foreman at ANY age is delusional. That "KO" is a mere technicality that the man was too tired to continue.

As for Jimmy Young...god damn did he clown Ali. It was a beautiful thing.

Then there was Leon Spinks...who was A BUM. Guy had like 7 fights, and 1 was a damn draw. I mean Ali was shot but DAMN, he lost to little ass Spinks?!? Spinks could beat NO ONE. After the second Ali fight he immediately gets KOed in the first round by the first next credible opponent he faces in Gerrie Coetzee. Couple fights later Holmes KOs him in 3, so he realizes he's never going to cut it in the Heavyweight Division. So he moves down to Cruiserweight and gets clowned some more. At the end of your career when the biggest named win on your resume reads Bernardo Mercado next to Muhammad Ali you know there's a problem. Ali even in his old age had no business losing to this guy.


So basically if I just took Ali's resume straight up with no evaluation of what the wins really came from, I would definitely rank him #1. But the guy was just too iffy on too many fights for me. "The Greatest" just shouldn't get exposed by so many people.
 

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I don't think Ali lost the Doug Jones fight, that's not why I listed that particular fight as a questionable win. I listed it as questionable solely because Doug Jones gave him hell....DOUG JONES. As a Heavyweight this guy would be lucky to make a top 1000 list, it was completely absurd Ali didn't clown this guy.

As for Norton, they were all damn close, and I had Norton winning 2 of the 3 personally. But I could see them all going to Norton just as easily if everyone wasn't so in love with Ali, Norton made him look extremely ordinary.

As for Ali beating George Foreman every time...it depends on who was training Foreman. Had Foreman had Angelo as a trainer at the time (which he would have him later when he went to regain the Heavyweight Championship) he would have EASILY beat Ali. Foreman only lost the fight because he was exhausted, and he was exhausted because he was fighting at a pace he could not sustain. Ali was not forcing Foreman to do ANYTHING. If he was just smart enough to take his time like he did in his old age it was an easy fight for Foreman. He underestimated Ali's defense and chin, figured he could just knock him out like everyone else. He was utterly shocked the plan wasn't working and Foreman HAD NO PLAN B. Jimmy Young is a guy Foreman maybe could have never beat, and perhaps a younger Ali, but an old Ali was not floating like a butterfly around the ring, he was a stationary target on the ropes that if Foreman understood controlled aggression he could have won practically all 15 rounds. Ali knew he only won because Foreman was an idiot, wonder why we never saw a rematch? Anyone who really believes Ali could ACTUALLY knock out George Foreman at ANY age is delusional. That "KO" is a mere technicality that the man was too tired to continue.

As for Jimmy Young...god damn did he clown Ali. It was a beautiful thing.

Then there was Leon Spinks...who was A BUM. Guy had like 7 fights, and 1 was a damn draw. I mean Ali was shot but DAMN, he lost to little ass Spinks?!? Spinks could beat NO ONE. After the second Ali fight he immediately gets KOed in the first round by the first next credible opponent he faces in Gerrie Coetzee. Couple fights later Holmes KOs him in 3, so he realizes he's never going to cut it in the Heavyweight Division. So he moves down to Cruiserweight and gets clowned some more. At the end of your career when the biggest named win on your resume reads Bernardo Mercado next to Muhammad Ali you know there's a problem. Ali even in his old age had no business losing to this guy.


So basically if I just took Ali's resume straight up with no evaluation of what the wins really came from, I would definitely rank him #1. But the guy was just too iffy on too many fights for me. "The Greatest" just shouldn't get exposed by so many people.


Jones just stopped both Bob Foster and Zora Folley and was rated #2 in the World in the Heavyweight Division, when he fought Ali, and Ali was only 21 years old. When Johnson was 21, he was stopped by John Klondike Haines, 2 years later he was stopped by Joe Choynski and lost to Hank Griffin and at the age of 27 (actually 3 days short of 27) he lost to Marvin Hart.

All 3 Norton bouts were close, I agree. All boxers had trouble with different kind of boxers. Look at Sugar Ray Robinson, I was on a TV Talk Show last month and Robinson was brought up. I brought up the name of Henry Brimm, and no one knew who he was. Brimm was 23-9-2 (he finished with 26-18-4) when he fought a draw against Robinson.

I honestly don't think Ali was the same after the 3rd Frazier bout. When he fought Spinks, he was only a shell of himself, BUT he did comeback one last time and beat him pretty easily.

As far as Foreman goes, Ali fought the prefect bout and beat him.

I have several STATS on Heavyweight Champions and Ali always come out on top. He fought and beat the best. Like I stated before, take the opponents that he beat against the opponents any other Heavyweight Champion beat, and see for yourself.

Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.

I have my picks in BOLD

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.
 
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