Old Time Fighters

bill1234

· #3 · May 28, 2007

RockyLegacy said:
Is this where I post it just for that?:thumbsup:

Yep. Unforutnately, I'm one of the only people left who talk about them much. JCC, hhascup, RoccoMarciano, and me used to all talk about them, but now...they all left.

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TysonJones

· #4 · May 28, 2007

bill if you wanna talk about old fighters we can, lets talk man, what you wanan talk about.

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SugarShane

· #5 · May 28, 2007

You left me off your list bill. I'm all about some oldschool disagreements.

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Ok, how far back do you know? I'm farely accurate back to the 1910's, but thats only on certain people. From the 30's on I can put on a strong argument. SO! LETS START OFF WITH ROCKY MARCIANO VS MUHAMMAD ALI PRIME VS PRIME.

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SugarShane

· #7 · May 29, 2007

I can go fairly far back. I don't go all the way back to the Firpo days although I know enough. As far as Rocco vs. Ali it is a tough one for me. The time difference is one thing that I do not take for granted and it is so hard to tell how successful the Rock would have been at that time. I know he could have put Ali to sleep with one punch at any time but would he? The biggest question mark for me is whether or not the clumsy Marciano could catch up to the quicker and more agile Ali. Now, I really couldn't see Ali knocking Marciano out at any time under any circumstance. So could Ali last 15 rounds with the relentless Rock? That is the big question and the validating point to anyone's argument on this particular hypothetical fight. I will go with Ali simply because he was a superior boxer, and I could see him beating Rocky down during every round while sustaining severe abuse throughout the fight. Yes, I will go with Ali but I remain skeptical.

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bill1234

· #8 · May 30, 2007

Ok, heres my take on it. For the computer fight, Ali and Marciano truly did spar, BUT they wore toupees around their belly. After one session, Dundee asked Ali how he felt. Ali replied "He's Crazy!!!" Ali ten lifted up his toupee to reveal huge red welts along his stomach. Also, Marciano was older, slower, and less powerful and aggressive. Now, if he was able to beat Ali in sparing, imagine in a real fight, but Marciano is in his prime, so he's faster, stronger, more aggressive, better stamina, better shape, AND he doesn't have ring rust. Ali was always sueptable to getting hit by left hooks, and Marciano, happened to have a great left hook. Marciano's double left hook was lethal. Ali would be able to stay away from Marciano for the first 5 or 6 rounds, but after that, Marciano would come on very strong. Marciano would out muscle and out work Ali, then he would go in for the KO. I would pick Marciano by KO in the 13th.

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SugarShane

· #9 · May 30, 2007

Computer fights mean aboslutely nothing to me. I just don't think Marciano could keep up with Ali. Sorry Bill, I just can't see it.

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TysonJones

· #10 · May 30, 2007

yeah, as much as i want to believe they really spared and marciano destroyed ali's body, i dont believe it, if it did happen, ali let him do it just for the sake of it. As for a real fight, prime vs prime, the ali that beat cleveland williams would of ko'ed rocky marciano, knocking him down several times, the marciano that knocked out walcott in their second fight, would of possibly beat ali, but overal i would go with ali. Faster, had a good 40 pound edge so even though this is out there, im sure ali hit close to as hard as marciano did, especially since ali threw punches with much more velocity and accuracy. Ali UD.

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jabutillurdown

· #11 · May 30, 2007

i believe that marciano couldve knocked ali out

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TysonJones

· #12 · May 30, 2007

foreman hit much harder than marciano, i doubt any knocked prime ali out, hell it took oen of the best heavyweights ever to finally get him to quit after he was way way awy past his prime and was already very much into his disease.

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TommyGunn

· #13 · May 30, 2007

damn bill, you left me off the list to, me and yourselfs probably had more ding dongs about the classics than anyone.

i think ali would probably have won nearly every round against rocky, im a marciano fan but sport evolves and the heavys just got bigger after rocky left.

IMO rocky would have lost to big guys like holmes lewis and bowe to, he just wasn't big enough to beat these guys.

if he fought today though he'd be the best cruiserweight by a mile though.

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TysonJones

· #14 · May 30, 2007

he'd be teh best cruiser weight of all time, imagine if he could of shrunk to 175 and a fight with rj could of went down, would of been like ali/marciano at heavyweight. hell marciano/holyfield at cruiserweight would of been a war.

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bill1234

· #15 · May 31, 2007

tysonjones said:
yeah, as much as i want to believe they really spared and marciano destroyed ali's body, i dont believe it, if it did happen, ali let him do it just for the sake of it. As for a real fight, prime vs prime, the ali that beat cleveland williams would of ko'ed rocky marciano, knocking him down several times, the marciano that knocked out walcott in their second fight, would of possibly beat ali, but overal i would go with ali. Faster, had a good 40 pound edge so even though this is out there, im sure ali hit close to as hard as marciano did, especially since ali threw punches with much more velocity and accuracy. Ali UD.

Nope. Its been proven. Marciano's "Suzie Q" was proven to have more force behind it than an armor peircing bullet, and had enough force to spot lift 1000lbs 12 inches off the ground. That was ion the mid 60's, so Marciano was out of shape and didn't hit as hard as he did in his prime. Also, Ali didn't have near enough power to knock down Marciano, let alone knock him out. Marciano was only knocked down twice in his career, one of which was a flash knockdown. He was never been in serious trouble, and had an incredible work rate. In Ali's prime, and in Marciano's prime, Ali only had a 15-20lb weight advantage, not 40. In Ali's first fight he weighed in at 186. Thats Marciano's peak weight. Accuracy has nothing to do with power. Marciano broke blood vesclees in Roland LaStarza's arms. LaStarza literaly couldn't pick his arms up for days. Marciano has a long line of KO's on his record, Ali has a medium line of TKO's. Why would Ali let Marciano pound and injure him? Ali had pride too you know. Not once, but TWICE a computer picked Marciano over Ali. Marciano proved it in sparring.

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bill1234

· #16 · May 31, 2007

tysonjones said:
foreman hit much harder than marciano, i doubt any knocked prime ali out, hell it took oen of the best heavyweights ever to finally get him to quit after he was way way awy past his prime and was already very much into his disease.

You are completely underrating Marciano's power. Foreman clubbed you down with a lot of punches till you couldn't get up. Marciano knocked you out cold with one punch in either hand. Did Foreman hit harder? Yes. Did he hit a lot harder? No. Ali wanted to quit against Liston in their first fight, and the 2nd one was arguably a set up.

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bill1234

· #17 · May 31, 2007

tommygunn said:
damn bill, you left me off the list to, me and yourselfs probably had more ding dongs about the classics than anyone.

i think ali would probably have won nearly every round against rocky, im a marciano fan but sport evolves and the heavys just got bigger after rocky left.

IMO rocky would have lost to big guys like holmes lewis and bowe to, he just wasn't big enough to beat these guys.

if he fought today though he'd be the best cruiserweight by a mile though.

No heavyweight was ever in as good as shape as Marciano. No heavyweight other than Frazier had the workrate as Marciano, and Marciano threw soooooooo many more haymakers than Frazier. I would say 40% of Marciano's punches were haymakers. Marciano IMO would have beaten Holmes, Lewis, and Bowe. Lewis was KO'd by a right hand twice. What was Marciano's best punch? His "Suzie Q" AKA his over hand right haymaker.

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TommyGunn

· #18 · May 31, 2007

bill1234 said:
No heavyweight was ever in as good as shape as Marciano. No heavyweight other than Frazier had the workrate as Marciano, and Marciano threw soooooooo many more haymakers than Frazier. I would say 40% of Marciano's punches were haymakers. Marciano IMO would have beaten Holmes, Lewis, and Bowe. Lewis was KO'd by a right hand twice. What was Marciano's best punch? His "Suzie Q" AKA his over hand right haymaker.

yeah bill marciano had freakish power but as i said sport evolves and the guys just got bigger, stronger and hit harder.

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bill1234

· #19 · May 31, 2007

tommygunn said:
yeah bill marciano had freakish power but as i said sport evolves and the guys just got bigger, stronger and hit harder.

Not really. Not to many people hit harder or are stronger than Marciano. Jerry Jackson weighed 254,Johnny Schkor weighed 220, Carmen Vingo was 6'4, Ezzard Charles was 6', Louis was 213.5 and 6'2, Walcott was 6', LaStarza was 6', Lee Savold was 6', the average weight for Marciano's opponents was 181.06, without the out liers it is 186.6. Also, if the people today trained as hard as Marciano did, then they wouldn't weigh 230-250, they would be in the low 200's.

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TysonJones

· #20 · May 31, 2007

i think your overestimated marciano's power, he knocked guys out that didnt weight anywehre near what foreman weighed. he also fought guys in the late 30's whiel he was in his late 20's and early 30's. ali had a very high percentage of knockouts when he first started, later on he started to get more decisions. WHY? because he himself got older. wladmir klitscko right hand is harder than marciano's, why because he's alosmt 60 pounds more of solid muscle and has around teh same ko percentage of marciano. marciano had a high work rate, but accuracy is power and accuracy is something marciano had very little of, he was more like foreman than you think. so if you are going to argue that accuracy and presion doesnt equal power, then you are arguing that becoming a boxer and learning how to punch, will never help you out in a fight.

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