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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
RJJ has become Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, and Heavyweight Champion of the World. BUT, time spent in Super Middleweight and Heavyweight won't get him any recognition in the history of those weight divisions at all. That leaves just two weight divisions to rate him by, Middleweight and Light Heavyweight. Jones had 25 fights and 5 years spent at Middleweight. Jones has 23 fights and 12 years spent in and out of the Light Heavyweight division (between moving up to Heavyweight for one fight and the short retirement), where he was clearly more accomplished. So what division will the history books rank Jones in? 2 more Light Heavyweight fights and Jones can kiss the chance of ever being rated as a Middleweight goodbye. This is why it matters:

Middleweight Career:
Roy Jones had 25 fights before he officially departed to the Super Middleweight division. He won them all, 22 by KO (88%). Most notable wins: Jorge Fernando Castro, Glenn Thomas, and Bernard Hopkins. Glenn Thomas was undefeated, Roy knocked him out in 8. After being knocked out by Roy the guy is immediately able to go the distance with James Toney and Mike McCallum. Just to show you it's no fluke, Glenn Wolfe is another guy who went the distance with Toney, Roy KOs him in the first round of Wolfe's very next fight. We also know Castro to be an Argentinean legend, and Hopkins a future all time great. In all of these 25 fights Roy averaged going a total of 4.56 rounds, and he became the IBF Middleweight Champion.

Light Heavyweight Career:
RJJ currently has 23 fights in this division, losing 5 of them with 2 by viscous KO and 1 by debatable DQ in a fight he was most likely going to win. Of his 18 wins exactly half of them were by KO, where Roy averaged going a distance of 9.44 rounds. Most notable wins: Mike McCallum (washed up), Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Julio Cesar Gonzales, Clinton Woods, and Antonio Tarver. Notable Losses: Antonio Tarver (x2) and Glen Johnson.

Conclusion:
His Light Heavyweight resume (despite winning nearly every possible title and becoming undisputed Light Heavyweight Champion) simply is not good enough to rate him in the all time top 10 list given the 2 KOs. Stand alone it wouldn't put him there even without the KOs, but previous success in lower weight divisions and overall dominance in his fights would have given him enough subjectivity to work with to take roughly anywhere between #4 to #10. But since the KOs did happen, no shot at the top 10 at all.

His Middleweight resume is very lacking, but o my god was he a COMPLETE BEAST. The first 5 years of his career are more impressive than any fighter who started at Middleweight in their first 5 years as one, and that's simply from an objective point of view. Subjectively, the man simply looked phenomenal. It was incredibly hard to picture anyone beating this man at 160 lbs. BUT, resume does matter and even tho success at higher weight divisions gives him subjective play for a Middleweight ranking, he can never make the top 5 all time Middleweights. Which in itself isn't all that bad considering history has those places reserved for Robinson, Greb, Hagler, Monzon, aaaand perhaps Bernard, time will tell (list in no particular order, and I know some of you will disagree with those names but by polling current historians those 4 average the highest ratings). Anyways, there seems to be room for Jones in the bottom half of the top 10...all he has to do is stop fighting...now.
 

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Premium Member
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He deserves to be in the top 10 lightheavyweights of all time for sure, but not in middle or heavy.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
He deserves to be in the top 10 lightheavyweights of all time for sure, but not in middle or heavy.
There's no shot he makes this list. Too many good names to put in front of him. Here's a quick 10 names I wouldn't even have to think about putting ahead of him:

Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Harold Johnson
Gene Tunney
Michael Moore
Michael Spinks
Bob Foster
Tommy Gibbons
Billy Conn
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
 

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Premium Member
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6,687 Posts
Hes 's a multi weight classes figure. He doesnt have a great resumee in any of those divisions in wich he fought. Same thing about Mayweather.

They may not crack top 10 ratings, but they will be there when you talk about the 50-60 greatest fighters of all time. at least, IMO
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hes 's a multi weight classes figure. He doesnt have a great resumee in any of those divisions in wich he fought. Same thing about Mayweather.

They may not crack top 10 ratings, but they will be there when you talk about the 50-60 greatest fighters of all time. at least, IMO
Mayweather will be remembered as the greatest Super Featherweight of all time. His name WILL be under the Super Featherweight list, and it will be at #1.
 

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Premium Member
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Roy Jones Jr was never in my top 10 ATG list, but he was in my top 20.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Guys I'm talking about top 10 for a single weight division. Middleweight or Light Heavyweight, where would you rank him in each?
He doesn't rank in my top 10 Middleweight, but he ranks in my top 10 Light Heavyweights, but doesn't rank alongside Charles, Moore, Spinks, Muhammad, Qawi, Tunney.. he's on the bottom half of it. This is my top 10 LHW fighters, in no particular order.

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Michael Spinks
Gene Tunney
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Joey Maxim
Roy Jones Jr
Virgil Hill
Marvin Johnson

My middleweights list, he doesn't rank. (In no particular order)

Sugar Ray Robinson
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
Carlos Monzon
Jake LaMotta
Stanley Ketchel
Tony Zale
Rocky Graziano
**** Tiger
Gene Fullmer

That's my top 10 MW list.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Remind me to tell tell you about Graziano, LaMotta, Hill and Joey Maxim one day.

And I suggest you check who beat half of my all time Light Heavyweight list....afterwards you'll find there is no way to not have this man on the Middleweight list.

Edit:

Additions to the list:

Tommy Loughran
Maxie Rosenbloom
Battling Levinsky
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Remind me to tell tell you about Graziano, LaMotta, Hill and Joey Maxim one day.

And I suggest you check who beat half of my all time Light Heavyweight list....afterwards you'll find there is no way to not have this man on the Middleweight list.
I'd be happy to learn. I liked Virgil Hill, I know that Ray Robinson should have beaten Joey Maxim, and would have had it not been for the heat.

Tell me who I should have put on my Middleweight list?
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'd be happy to learn. I liked Virgil Hill, I know that Ray Robinson should have beaten Joey Maxim, and would have had it not been for the heat.

Tell me who I should have put on my Middleweight list?
I want you to look through the records of the people on my Light Heavyweight list. Just check a lot of the real old time fighters, you are guaranteed to see a re-occurring name.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
I want you to look through the records of the people on my Light Heavyweight list. Just check a lot of the real old time fighters, you are guaranteed to see a re-occurring name.
Alright cool, I'll do that when I get home since I'm heading out now.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
I forgot I only showed 10 names and not 15. Only Tunney and Gibbons should be looked at in the list I posted. Well...the answer is obvious now cuz Tunney only lost to 1 guy.
Harry Greb! I've not actually seen a whole lot of him. I hear so many great things about him, but I've never seen much of him to really rate him highly. Was he as good as people say?
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Harry Greb! I've not actually seen a whole lot of him. I hear so many great things about him, but I've never seen much of him to really rate him highly. Was he as good as people say?
His resume of beating Hall of Famers involves more wins than than most fighters have notable wins, period. Credit to hhascup for checking how many times he beat these guys.

Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice, Greb was the only one to beat Tunney
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion

Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion

Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Billy Miske (2) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner - Defeated four world champions in his career
 

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Spike Spiegel
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Impressive. I'm definitely going to look to find a few of his fights and watch the guy. A win over Tunney is very impressive aswell, since I consider Tunney to be VERY good.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Aight as promised let me give the skinny on some fighters you had on your LH list. For now I'll start with Virgil Hill. I mean how do you want to rate this guy? We could do it Calzaghe style and say hey, look at all those title defenses, he musta been a great fighter. Problem with that is, not only was he not defending it against solid fighters (which Calzaghe is guilty of), but he ducked the actual solid fighters in the division available to fight (which Calzaghe isn't very guilty of). In all honesty, Virgil Hill is one of the most protected American champions of all time. The man had 11 title fights before he stepped up in opposition to fight an over-the-hill Tommy Hearns. Let me repeat that, he stepped UP in competition to fight an OVER THE HILL fighter, and he lost! This was effectively worse than if Joe Calzaghe lost to Chris Eubank, considering Hearns never dominated the Light Heavyweight division like Eubank dominated at Super Middleweight.

First Stint as LH Champion:
The only reason Hill became Champion in the first place is because Marvin Johnson was washed up and lost to a man he already stopped previously. Stewart was never World Champion before that fight and was never World Champion again after. You look through his list of opponents before losing to Hearns and it's incredibly bleak. I mean without a doubt Bobby Czyz is the most credible Light Heavyweight on it. None of the other fighters aside from Bobby and Stewart ever won a World title PERIOD. And this just isn't at the time he fought them, it's over the entire length of their careers. In one of his early defenses he fights this guy named Ramzi Hassan and goes the distance with him. In Hassan's previous fight he's KOed in the last round by a man Hill should have faced instead of Hassan. His name was Tony Willis, and he was never that good but he could KO Heavyweights so he was considered too dangerous for a protected fighter like Hill to fight. In Hassan's next fight after Hill, he gets KOed in 5 by the new WBO Champion Michael Moorer (another fighter missing from your Light Heavyweight list). With this KO Moorer increased his winning streak to 12 wins all via KO. 5 of the 11 fights Moorer had before this went 1 round, and another 5 went 2 rounds, with only 1 going 4 rounds. Would we ever get to see Moorer vs Hill? Not a chance. Moorer actually became the most avoided fighter in the division, so he opted to beat the **** out of Heavyweights instead. LH career of Michael Moorer ended with 22 wins, no losses, and 22 KOs.

Second Stint as LH Champion:
3 fights after losing to Hearns, Hill gets his WBA LH title back in a vacant title fight. So that's 2 times he's won the title without really beating anyone of consequence for it. I mean Frank Tate was no bum, at Middleweight anyways. But this was LH...Tate was far from a quality fighter at LH. Tate actually having a record of once being a World Champion however enticed Hill to give the man a rematch some years later. Whoever Hill's manager was, did a DAMN good job. Enough was enough with the over-protection for the most part though, Hill finally started getting matched with recognizable names on a more regular basis. Notable wins of his second reign: Adolpho Washington, Fabrice Tiozzo, Lou Del Valle, and Henry Maske. Stylistically Hill was a problem for Fabrice (who I consider to be the better fighter of the two, something their record would support). The first win was a SD that could have gone either way, then years later Hill wins the Cruiserweight title from him via 1st round KO (lucky for Hill he caught him early). But hey, he won. Biggest damn accomplishment of his whole career. Lou De Valle was an over rated fighter that never accomplished anything other than winning a vacant title and losing it immediately. Then there was Henry Maske...who was damn good, and nearly too good for Hill as he won yet another SD. It was Henry's first loss and it sent him into retirement. 10+ years later Henry came out of retirement for the sole purpose of beating Virgil, and he did. After the first fight with Henry, Hill would go on to lose back to back against Dariusz Michalczewski and RJJ, marking the end of his success as a Light Heavyweight. His success at Cruiserweight stems no further than what I stated earlier in the paragraph.

Main Guys Hill Avoided:
Michael Moorer
Charles "Prince" Williams
Jeff Harding
Dennis Andries
Mike McCallum

Where Hill rates in history:
Unfortunately for his fans...not remotely high. I couldn't put the man on a top 50 all time Light Heavyweight list. To do so would be a travesty of justice. He wasn't as good as the Light Heavyweights slightly before his time (Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Michael Spinks, Marvin Johnson), he wasn't as good as some of the Light Heavyweights during his time (Moorer, McCallum, Williams), and he wasn't as good as the Light Heavyweights after his time either (James Toney, RJJ, Montell Griffin, Reggie Johnson, Antonio Tarver, Glen Johnson, and soon to come Chad Dawson). I mean I only sampled like 30 years of boxing right there and that's already 15 names to put ahead of him.
 

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Mental Midget
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4,170 Posts
Guys I'm talking about top 10 for a single weight division. Middleweight or Light Heavyweight, where would you rank him in each?
I see what you are saying, but when talking about guys who have fought in so many weight divisions, I dont think that they are thought of specifically in that manner.
I think he will be thought of as a Light Heavyweight and he will be ranked based on his career, not just those fights. Either way, I dont know if I'd put him in the top 10 overall of all time, but because of his body of work both below, above and IN that weight class, I believe he makes the top 10 ATG in that specific weight class, yes.
 

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The Professor
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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I see what you are saying, but when talking about guys who have fought in so many weight divisions, I dont think that they are thought of specifically in that manner.
I think he will be thought of as a Light Heavyweight and he will be ranked based on his career, not just those fights. Either way, I dont know if I'd put him in the top 10 overall of all time, but because of his body of work both below, above and IN that weight class, I believe he makes the top 10 ATG in that specific weight class, yes.
Which weight class is this? I said rate him in Middle and/or Light Heavy. And as I said before there's a case for him at Middleweight but Light Heavyweight? No shot. There's a good 5 Philadelphia guys ahead of him there alone :p

When rating a guy in a higher weight division what he did in a lower one doesn't do him much credit in the higher one unless there was evidence he was the same fighter. RJJ was not remotely the same fighter, the distance his fights lasted doubled and the most elite Light Heavyweight he ever beat was Virgil Hill. Crowning Light Heavyweight achievement being Virgill Hill / Montell Griffin (toss up) isn't exactly top 10 all time LH material. Fact of the matter is Tarver and Johnson became the best LHs of the division, better than all the guys Jones beat. So losing to both of them (especially that emphatically) really does Jones no favors.
 
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