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Marciano vs. Holmes

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The Professor
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White people never got treated speacial ;) Marciano had to retire because he really screwed up his back. It is too bad that he never had that comeback fight with Ingemar Johansson.
Was this while Ingemar was still champ?

Sounds like ducking Patterson if so...Maybe with Marciano's bad back Patterson MIGHT have beat him, but it's too reaching for Marciano to not want to take the challenge.
 

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He was out of shape cuz he was washed up :p He looked good nonetheless. Years later he proved he could still hang going the distance with Holyfield. Marciano never let us see him past his prime, he only had an 8 year career with 80% of his fights sub elite level standard. It's almost like it was intentional so people would rate him higher than he deserved. It would appear to have worked. Him being White I'm sure has nothing to do with it...
A couple of years ago I met Ted Lowry, who went the distance with Rocky twice. Ted is a small man for a heavyweight BUT if you read the papers the day after their 1st bout, most, if not all, of them had Ted winning.

The local newspaper had Lowry winning six rounds to four.

If you look at Rocky's record, you will find that Rocky fought at the Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island 28 times, BUT still most of the people their thought Lowry won.

I believe that is a record for a Heavyweight Champion. Charles fought 26 times at the Music Hall Sports Arena, Cincinnati, Ohio BUT he also had a lot more bouts then Rocky had too (116 to Rocky's 49).
 

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The Professor
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A couple of years ago I met Ted Lowry, who went the distance with Rocky twice. Ted is a small man for a heavyweight BUT if you read the papers the day after their 1st bout, most, if not all, of them had Ted winning.

The local newspaper had Lowry winning six rounds to four.

If you look at Rocky's record, you will find that Rocky fought at the Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island 28 times, BUT still most of the people their thought Lowry won.

I believe that is a record for a Heavyweight Champion. Charles fought 26 times at the Music Hall Sports Arena, Cincinnati, Ohio BUT he also had a lot more bouts then Rocky had too (116 to Rocky's 49).
Wow, was Ted local too? Seems almost impossible for Marciano not to have won the fans over, it was practically his arena.
 

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The Professor
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hhascup curious to see where you rate Marciano in the list of the best Heavyweights. If you could show everyone above him and a few below I'd appreciate it. It's ok if you're ratings aren't an exact science, I realize how difficult it is to do, just want to get a sense of your general view of the heavyweights we've had.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Was this while Ingemar was still champ?

Sounds like ducking Patterson if so...Maybe with Marciano's bad back Patterson MIGHT have beat him, but it's too reaching for Marciano to not want to take the challenge.
Yeah. Marciano was considering a fight with him until he lost the rematch with Floyd Patterson, and then the hopes for a fight dissapeared. Technically he was not ducking Patterson, because Patterson wasn't calling him out and Marciano was still retired.
 

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hhascup curious to see where you rate Marciano in the list of the best Heavyweights. If you could show everyone above him and a few below I'd appreciate it. It's ok if you're ratings aren't an exact science, I realize how difficult it is to do, just want to get a sense of your general view of the heavyweights we've had.
That's hard because of match-ups. Example:

Foreman would beat Frazier and Norton everytime, BUT he would loss to Ali and Ali would have trouble with both Frazier and Norton.

I made upthis list several years ago BUT everytime I look at it, I want to make some changes. I don't know 2 boxing historians that would agree with another historian on a top 10 list.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Gene Tunney
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Mike Tyson
14. James J. Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Riddick Bowe

I went by overall career, not at their prime. Like I said, if I had to make it out today, I might change a few. I believe Tyson would have beaten Marciano BUT Marciano had a better overall career.
 

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The Professor
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That's hard because of match-ups. Example:

Foreman would beat Frazier and Norton everytime, BUT he would loss to Ali and Ali would have trouble with both Frazier and Norton.

I made upthis list several years ago BUT everytime I look at it, I want to make some changes. I don't know 2 boxing historians that would agree with another historian on a top 10 list.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Gene Tunney
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Mike Tyson
14. James J. Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Riddick Bowe

I went by overall career, not at their prime. Like I said, if I had to make it out today, I might change a few. I believe Tyson would have beaten Marciano BUT Marciano had a better overall career.
No problem that Dempsey had plaster in his gloves to KO Willard and refused to fight Black fighters even after Jack Johnson had reigned as champ for years?

Tunney I'd rate as a Light Heavyweight. Charles was prime at Light Heavyweight but it's fair to list him as a Heavyweight.

No Sam Langford, Harry Wills? :(:(:(

Those comments aside definitely have everyone else in the top 20 and mostly top 10 of my list too.
 

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No problem that Dempsey had plaster in his gloves to KO Willard and refused to fight Black fighters even after Jack Johnson had reigned as champ for years?

Tunney I'd rate as a Light Heavyweight. Charles was prime at Light Heavyweight but it's fair to list him as a Heavyweight.

No Sam Langford, Harry Wills? :(:(:(

Those comments aside definitely have everyone else in the top 20 and mostly top 10 of my list too.
I was rating just Heavyweight Champions, so Langford, & Wills were left out and Tunney and Charles was added. In the list that Bert Sugar has, both Tunney and Charles are in his top 10 as heavyweights.

It was never proven that Dempsey had anything in his gloves, in fact most people that looked into it, said he did not. As far as Dempsey not boxing Black boxers goes, he did box some before he was Champion BUT after Johnson, no one wanted him to box another one. Harry Wills did sign a contract with Dempsey at least once and maybe twice BUT the people around at the time were against it and it fell through.

I also go by what other boxing historians have to say.
 

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The Professor
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I was rating just Heavyweight Champions, so Langford, & Wills were left out and Tunney and Charles was added. In the list that Bert Sugar has, both Tunney and Charles are in his top 10 as heavyweights.

It was never proven that Dempsey had anything in his gloves, in fact most people that looked into it, said he did not. As far as Dempsey not boxing Black boxers goes, he did box some before he was Champion BUT after Johnson, no one wanted him to box another one. Harry Wills did sign a contract with Dempsey at least once and maybe twice BUT the people around at the time were against it and it fell through.

I also go by what other boxing historians have to say.
OK another question, had Dempsey fought Wills or a younger Langford who do you think wins?
 

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OK another question, had Dempsey fought Wills or a younger Langford who do you think wins?
That would be a couple of dream matches and it would be anyones guess.

Years after Dempsey retired, he said that he only feared 1 man, Sam Langford. Sam was only 5′6½″, so I think Wills would have stood a better chance, BUT I would rate Sam as one of the top pound for pound boxers in history.

I think Dempsey would have beaten Sam as Sam was stopped 9 times and Jack would have had a big size advantage over him.
 

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The Professor
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That would be a couple of dream matches and it would be anyones guess.

Years after Dempsey retired, he said that he only feared 1 man, Sam Langford. Sam was only 5′6½″, so I think Wills would have stood a better chance, BUT I would rate Sam as one of the top pound for pound boxers in history.

I think Dempsey would have beaten Sam as Sam was stopped 9 times and Jack would have had a big size advantage over him.
Sam was knocked out 2 times 46 and 51 fights into his professional career by Joe Jeannette and Young Peter Jackson respectively. Joe you can argue is a top 20 Heavyweight, if anyone had Jack Johnson's number, it was him. Peter Jackson KOed about 75% of the men he ever beat through his career. Sam would also beat both these men more times than they beat him in their numerous rematches. He isn't knocked out again until his 173rd and 174th professional bout against Harry Wills himself. He doesn't get knocked out again until he's almost completely washed up with 256 pro fights and 20 years of fighting the best there was in the bag.

That said, sure Sam could be KOed but he most likely wouldn't be and he could even more easily KO Dempsey. He may struggle to win on points, but if they fought 10 times I'd say Sam wins 7 of them. Wills usually bested Langford but he was an inch taller, much heavier, and beat tougher opposition overall than Dempsey. And Dempsey had been knocked out by a smaller man before in Fireman Jim Flynn via 1 round. He had good reason to be afraid of Langford, even if Langford was approaching around 150 fights into his career by the time Dempsey turned pro. Given the discrepancies in prime, maybe it goes 50-50. But if age was a non issue I stay with my 70-30.
 

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Sam was knocked out 2 times 46 and 51 fights into his professional career by Joe Jeannette and Young Peter Jackson respectively. Joe you can argue is a top 20 Heavyweight, if anyone had Jack Johnson's number, it was him. Peter Jackson KOed about 75% of the men he ever beat through his career. Sam would also beat both these men more times than they beat him in their numerous rematches. He isn't knocked out again until his 173rd and 174th professional bout against Harry Wills himself. He doesn't get knocked out again until he's almost completely washed up with 256 pro fights and 20 years of fighting the best there was in the bag.

That said, sure Sam could be KOed but he most likely wouldn't be and he could even more easily KO Dempsey. He may struggle to win on points, but if they fought 10 times I'd say Sam wins 7 of them. Wills usually bested Langford but he was an inch taller, much heavier, and beat tougher opposition overall than Dempsey. And Dempsey had been knocked out by a smaller man before in Fireman Jim Flynn via 1 round. He had good reason to be afraid of Langford, even if Langford was approaching around 150 fights into his career by the time Dempsey turned pro. Given the discrepancies in prime, maybe it goes 50-50. But if age was a non issue I stay with my 70-30.

Jeannette beat Johnson only once and that was by a DQ. His record against Johnson was 1-3-1 with 3 no-decision bouts.

Young Peter had 60 KO's in his 82 wins BUT he fought 149 times, I think you should count that too.

As far as Dempsey getting knocked out goes, just read this:

Did Jack Dempsey Take a Dive?

Back when Langford, Wills, Jeannette fought they fought each other many times and fought a lot more bouts by doing so. They even carried each other at times. This was the only way they could make any money.

Its very hard to rate someone who you never saw box. A lot of people look at Harry Greb boxing and they say that he looked like an amateur.

As far as pound for pound goes, you would have to rate Langford, Gans, Greb and some others right up their, BUT again, there is very little film on them. I would also rate Langford the best overall boxer that never won a Title. Charlie Burley I would put up their as well.

By the way, we are honoring Joe Jeannette in New Jersey again and I am one of the guest speakers. We did the same thing many years ago and I was the MC of that too.
 

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The Professor
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Jeannette beat Johnson only once and that was by a DQ. His record against Johnson was 1-3-1 with 3 no-decision bouts.

Young Peter had 60 KO's in his 82 wins BUT he fought 149 times, I think you should count that too.

As far as Dempsey getting knocked out goes, just read this:

Did Jack Dempsey Take a Dive?

Back when Langford, Wills, Jeannette fought they fought each other many times and fought a lot more bouts by doing so. They even carried each other at times. This was the only way they could make any money.

Its very hard to rate someone who you never saw box. A lot of people look at Harry Greb boxing and they say that he looked like an amateur.

As far as pound for pound goes, you would have to rate Langford, Gans, Greb and some others right up their, BUT again, there is very little film on them. I would also rate Langford the best overall boxer that never won a Title. Charlie Burley I would put up their as well.

By the way, we are honoring Joe Jeannette in New Jersey again and I am one of the guest speakers. We did the same thing many years ago and I was the MC of that too.
I count it even more so that he lost so many times. He appeared to be a desperate fighter who needed the KO or he'd lose.

If Johnson toyed with Jeannette in all those fights...then I don't know.

Where in Jersey is this thing happening for Jeannette? I can make it to south jersey pretty easily.
 

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I count it even more so that he lost so many times. He appeared to be a desperate fighter who needed the KO or he'd lose.

If Johnson toyed with Jeannette in all those fights...then I don't know.

Where in Jersey is this thing happening for Jeannette? I can make it to south jersey pretty easily.
I never said Johnson toyed with Jeannette.

The celebration will be in Union City.

I was in Trenton a couple of weeks ago, ring announcing. They had James Scott, Sammy Goss and others at the show and I introduced them.
 

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Besides Louis, who was way past his prime, Rocky never fought a top 10 contender that was close to Holmes's size. In fact he never fought a top 10 contender that was over 6' and weighed over 200 pounds besides Louis.

If Rocky was boxing today, he would be a small cruiserweight.
He would be the greatest cruiserweight of all time then, and he would be a cruiser weight that could destroy all of the heavies.
 
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