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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This post is basically been the major question of boxing ever since the death of Marciano. They made a computer fight saying that Ali fell in the 8th round.

Tell me what you think would happen in the fight, going 15 rounds, and then for a finish fight (a fight going on forever.) and do the same for the Ali after being banned.

Heres how I see the fight ending
PRIME VS. PRIME
Marciano TKO12 Ali
PRIME MARCIANO VS. 1970S ALI
Marciano KO6 Ali
 

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Ali never actually fought in his prime, he was railroaded and banned, that 3 year stretch would have been his real prime.

Who, under 35, did Marciano beat to make you think that he could KO Muhammad Ali?

Sonny Liston was comprehensively out boxed and disected, Liston hit harder than Marciano and had better boxing skills. Foreman also hit harder though was not as good a boxer. Before the ban Ali wins by a wide UD win, possible stoppage on cuts, after the ban closer UD or possible stoppage on cuts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
How can you know that he never fought in his prime.... IF HE NEVER FOUGHT DURING THE TIME THAT YOU SAY IS HIS PRIME!!!!! He was in his FIGHTING prime in the mid 1960s.

Marciano beat Ezzard Charles, Rex Layne, Lee Savold, and Harry Mathews. Liston did not hit as hard as Marciano. Marciano broke Lee Savold's forearm, and after the fight with Roland La Starza, La Starza had to immediately go into surgery because the vains in his arms needed to be reconnected or something like that. When Marciano fought Bernie Reynolds, he hit Reynolds so hard that Reynolds so hard that he floated far enough so that the back of his head and his heels touched the canvas at the same exact time. There is no way Liston could ever be better than Marciano in punching power. Give me some facts better than the ones I just gave you.

There is no way Ali would have gone the distance in his 70s prime. His 70d prime was to lay back on the rope while his opponent punched the crap out of his arms, and got tired. Marciano hit extremely hard, and would break Ali's arms, and Marciano NEVER got tired.
 

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In rocky marciano's time wasn't the gloves not even padded well enough? Thought of that?
They were padded just as much. They fought with 8-10 ounce gloves too. It was 6 ounce back in Dempsey's day, and about 4 ounce in Sullivan's.
 

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The Professor
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Breaking forearms and whatnot isn't an indication that Marciano hit harder than Liston. Placement of the punch does that. Force alone doesn't break a forearm. Comparing early round KOs of marquee opposition is a much better indicator. Liston wins there hands down.

Marciano didn't fight anyone I knew basically until 1951, 4 years into his career. Normally this would be fine except his career only lasted 8.5 years, and he was only heavyweight champion for 3 of them. His most meaningful win in my eye was the first fight with Ezzard Charles, who was the only great fighter of reasonable age he fought. Ezzard had a glass jaw and was a natural Light Heavyweight as he spent most his career there, yet he went the full 15 rounds the first time around. Now Ezzard is the type of guy you can compare physically to Floyd Patterson. Extremely fast Heavyweights on the small side with good skills but lacked real Heavyweight power and had questionable jaws. Marciano went a total of 23 rounds with Charles, Liston went a total of 2 with Patterson.

You know, had Marciano stuck around a couple more years he would have fought Liston. Shame we didn't get to see it. I can't really give Marciano much of a chance tho. Liston had an 84 inch reach, Marciano had a 67 inch reach. Liston was a little over 6 ft, Marciano was 5'10. Marciano weighed around 185-190, Liston weighed 210-220. And if that advantage isn't enough, Liston would be the only young elite fighter Marciano ever fought. Anyways, this started with who hit harder. The shear physics of what would today be a Light Heavyweight on the DAY OF the fight (ie weigh in at 175 and re-hydrate to 190) being able to compete power wise with a natural Heavyweight is reaching. It's still possible, but considering Liston was put in there with the best when he was still green and knocked them out early regardless, not much of a case can be made for Marciano having the harder punch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I don't care who you are, you cannot compare Patterson with Charles. Charles has a glass jaw? Did you see the fights he had with Marciano????????? If that was glass, that s.hit was shattered. Charles would KO Patterson in 5.

Early round KOs.. Marciano had those....... LOL Bernie Reynolds KO3, Harry Matthews KO2....
 

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The Professor
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I don't care who you are, you cannot compare Patterson with Charles. Charles has a glass jaw? Did you see the fights he had with Marciano????????? If that was glass, that s.hit was shattered. Charles would KO Patterson in 5.

Early round KOs.. Marciano had those....... LOL Bernie Reynolds KO3, Harry Matthews KO2....
Early round KOs against PRIME TIME fighters, not nobodies.

And Patterson would KO Charles, sorry. Took Marciano a while to KO him because the power required to KO a moving target with ease was out of Rocky's capability. Marciano also KOs Patterson too, and earlier than Charles. That's because of Patterson's style of always coming forward, would have been disastrous. That said, he still doesn't KO him in 1 round, twice.

There is no significant difference in Patterson and Charles' jaws, I assure you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
how was Harry Mathews not a prime time fighter?

How was Charles able to take such a huge beating from Marciano then? Just by saying that there is no difference you are losing this argument.
 

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The Professor
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how was Harry Mathews not a prime time fighter?

How was Charles able to take such a huge beating from Marciano then? Just by saying that there is no difference you are losing this argument.
1) Harry Matthews just isn't, nothing more I can say.

2) I explained the bold in my previous post. I'm not losing the argument, you just aren't completely reading what I write.

For further explanation, read the following:

Charles severely out boxed Marciano. He was taking hard shots throughout the fight no doubt but the reason he was able to go the distance was because of the severe technical boxing advantage he had. He didn't have to take all these shots CONSEQUTIVELY, he'd box his way out of trouble. And when he did take the shots, he could often enough ride the punch. Riding punches isn't something Marciano knew how to do, but Charles was not so limited.
 

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The Professor
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how do you ride a punch?
As the punch is making contact with the face you move your face into the direction the punch is going intentionally. It MASSIVELY reduces the effect of the punch. I could explain the physics of it but it would probably bore you. Anyhow, great boxers do this instinctively. This, shoulder rolling, meeting the other guys arm with your forearm before a hook reaches its destination (which was basically every punch Marciano threw) were all things Charles was a master of. These same skills work for fighters like Bernard Hopkins and James Toney today. They were lucky enough to have a jaw too, and it's why they've never been knocked out, and why Pavlik isn't about to stop Hopkins now come 2 weeks from now ;).
 

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There is no significant difference in Patterson and Charles' jaws, I assure you.
Yes there is. Charles's jaw wasn't iron, but his jaw was still very good. If you're able to fight very hard hitters like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Rocky Marciano for a total of 75 rounds, and only get dropped twice, and that was by the same man in the same fight, then something should be said for you. I'm not including his other fights with hard hitters like Rex Layne, Bob Satterfield, and Archie Moore. Out of 950 rounds in the ring in a proffesional bout, he was only dropped in 10 fights, and some of those were by the same men.

Patterson would go down from the first hard shot landed, Charles wouldn't.
 

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The Professor
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Yes there is. Charles's jaw wasn't iron, but his jaw was still very good. If you're able to fight very hard hitters like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Rocky Marciano for a total of 75 rounds, and only get dropped twice, and that was by the same man in the same fight, then something should be said for you. I'm not including his other fights with hard hitters like Rex Layne, Bob Satterfield, and Archie Moore. Out of 950 rounds in the ring in a proffesional bout, he was only dropped in 10 fights, and some of those were by the same men.

Patterson would go down from the first hard shot landed, Charles wouldn't.
Charles had success in the Heavyweight division for the same reason Marciano did, everyone else was much older and slower. He is one of the fastest heavyweights we've had after all. Walcott did managed to KO him once after all, then the year after Marciano KOs him he gets knocked out by a relative unknown in John Holman. Holman never beat anyone else of value besides Charles. Charles' career from that point on is terrible.
 

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Charles had success in the Heavyweight division for the same reason Marciano did, everyone else was much older and slower. He is one of the fastest heavyweights we've had after all. Walcott did managed to KO him once after all, then the year after Marciano KOs him he gets knocked out by a relative unknown in John Holman. Holman never beat anyone else of value besides Charles. Charles' career from that point on is terrible.
Have you seen the shot Walcott KO'd Charles with?
 
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