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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
There's come to be recently here a lot of talk ... about Rocky Marciano having fought Joe Louis.

So I've come to have interest now in talking more about this fight.

I have the tape of this fight.

Stick around because later ... I'm going to call that fight as I saw it. And if you like .. if you're seen this fight? You can call it as you saw it too.

Joe Louis was an old guy when he fought Rocky .. but Louis was no push over ... he was still dangerous.

I say it was the strategy that Rocky used that won that fight ... and I'm going to want to talk about that.
 

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JCC said:
There's come to be recently here a lot of talk ... about Rocky Marciano having fought Joe Louis.

So I've come to have interest now in talking more about this fight.

I have the tape of this fight.

Stick around because later ... I'm going to call that fight as I saw it. And if you like .. if you're seen this fight? You can call it as you saw it too.

Joe Louis was an old guy when he fought Rocky .. but Louis was no push over ... he was still dangerous.

I say it was the strategy that Rocky used that won that fight ... and I'm going to want to talk about that.


JC, your one of the very few boxing people that has stated that. I too have that bout on film. I also have the bouts that Louis fought in the late 1930's and early 1940's, and their is a big difference between that Louis and the Louis that fought Rocky.

In Louis's last 9 bouts he only had 3 knockouts. He just wasn't the same as he once was.
 

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hhascup said:
JC, your one of the very few boxing people that has stated that. I too have that bout on film. I also have the bouts that Louis fought in the late 1930's and early 1940's, and their is a big difference between that Louis and the Louis that fought Rocky.

In Louis's last 9 bouts he only had 3 knockouts. He just wasn't the same as he once was.

Of Course he wasn't the same... He was a 102 years old :D
 

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Dr. Wisdom said:
Of Course he wasn't the same... He was a 102 years old :D
According to the Eddie Murphy movie "coming to America" Joe Louis was 80 some years old when he fought Marciano.
"There they go again......"
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
The Rocky Marciano critics sure like to exaggerate in making excuses to lower Rocky Marciano's statute don't they? (smiling)


Going into the fight with Rocky Marciano in 1951 ... Joe Louis was 37 years old. Louis had been champion for 12 years before vacating the crown to go into temporary retirement in 1949, and had defended his title an unprecented 72 times. Louis had been defeated only twice in 72 professional fights, a knockout by Schmeling in their first encounter and a 15 round decison lost to Ezzard Charles, Louis won 8 fights without a loss, 4 of then by KOs going into his fight with Marciano in 1951 .. Louis was an older fighter and past his prime ... but he was still dangerous and no pushover like the Rocky Marciano critics would try to make us believe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I welcome the Rocky Marciano critics to call the Marciano-Louis fight ... as they saw it .. if they've seen the fight?

I'm going to take time to watch the fight again on tape just to refresh my memory, and later I'm going to call this fight as I saw it.
 

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JCC said:
I welcome the Rocky Marciano critics to call the Marciano-Louis fight ... as they saw it .. if they've seen the fight?

I'm going to take time to watch the fight again on tape just to refresh my memory, and later I'm going to call this fight as I saw it.

Even the BIGGEST critics of Louis and the BIGGEST supporters of Rocky, would admit that the Louis that fought Rocky, was not the same fighter he once was. He came back because he owed the Goverment millions of dollars.

I also have the hold tape of he bout, so what does that prove. Even Rocky admitted that Louis was way past his prime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
JCC said:
... Louis was an older fighter and past his prime ..
Hey, Henry. This above quote was taken from a previous post of mine above. Maybe you just didn't see it.
 

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Louis was past his prime, but he still had his power. He just didn't have as said in Rocky 3, he didn't have "the eye of the tiger" he just went in there to pay back money. But he got his butt handed to him during the process. Marciano admitted, and everyone else knows, that Louis was past his prime. BUt he was still winning, and some of theose wins were by KO. Louis wouldn't have beat Marciano in his prime anyways. Louis would have put up a bigger fight but that is about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Bill ... I've never really given much thought about Marciano to have fought Louis when Louis was in prime .. but since you said that ... I believe he would have beaten Louis even if he had been in his prime when they fought and most likely Marciano would have also gotten the knock out. Rocky was a rare breed in the heavyweight division .. never any one like him. And what's so amazing about it with all the natural disadvantages he had in being a small man for being a heavyweight ... not only in weight .. but with shorter arms and reach ... and on top that too old in getting started out as a pro ... none of that made any difference.
 

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JCC said:
Bill ... I've never really given much thought about Marciano to have fought Louis when Louis was in prime .. but since you said that ... I believe he would have beaten Louis even if he had been in his prime when they fought and most likely Marciano would have also gotten the knock out. Rocky was a rare breed in the heavyweight division .. never any one like him. And what's so amazing about it with all the natural disadvantages he had in being a small man for being a heavyweight ... not only in weight .. but with shorter arms and reach ... and on top that too old in getting started out as a pro ... none of that made any difference.
Rocky once said that he was glad that he didn't box Louis when he was in his prime, he was tough enough when they did box.

Like I said before, Louis, Ali, Holmes fought much better competition then Rocky did. Who in their prime, was the hardest puncher that Rocky ever went against, and don't say Louis, because in his last 9 bouts before boxing Rocky, he had only 3 Knockouts, not 4. In his bout with Rocky the scores were as follows:

Referee: Ruby Goldstein 4-2
Judge: Joe Agnello 5-2
Judge: Harold Barnes 4-3
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
First off, Henry, and because I know many people idolized Joe Louis. I want to say this! Let's look to why Rocky fought Joe Louis is the first place?

It all comes down to this ... Louis had made a comeback and he was broke and owned back taxes he hadn't paid and he needed the money, and Louis was seeking a title shot and so was Rocky.

Rocky did not want to fight Joe Louis because he feared Louis or because he didn't believe he could beat him.

Rocky was confident that he could beat Louis.

The reason he did not want to fight Louis was only because he had such respect and admiration for Joe Louis.

Hey, especially, in that time who's going to be popular fighting Joe Louis? He had a great many fans who idolized him.

But as for Rocky being worried that he couldn't beat Joe Louis? He wasn't worried about fighting Louis, however. Charley Goldman ... Rocky's trainer .. was a worried about Rocky fighting Louis, he feared that Louis knew to much for Rocky.

Another thing Joe Louis was a big man .. he was six-two and 212 pounds to Rocky's five-ten, 187 pounds, and Louis had a nine-inch reach advantage as well as far more experiene.

Also Louis certianly appeared to be confident he would beat Rocky, he didn't appear to being going into that fight thinking he wasn't going to win.

At age 37, he ... that is, Joe Louis .. was fighting because he needed money just as you earlier said in one of your posts.

Hey, Joe Louis was a great fighter and a former world champion and a great champion .. and champions even former champions seldom even consider defeat when they fight.

But even though Louis natually had slowed with age, he still had the punch ... he banged his sparring partners around the ring in training for the fight in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey real good, he still had the punch.

Just a few days before the fight with Rocky, Louis flattened a sparring partner Holly Smith, and Louis said he had come to fight. He told newspaper reporters that he was going to get the knockout and flatten Rocky. Louis appeared to have been really be up for the fight. He was planning to win ... he wanted a title shot ... just as Rocky did.

That doesn't sound like Louis was a wussie to me ... does it to you?

I say Joe Louis was an older man and past his prime when he fought Rocky, but still a real tough guy and no pushover. Maybe you think differently about it. But that's how I see it.

As for your mention Louis having the 3 wins by knockout instead 4. I got that after Louis lost the title bid to Ezzard Charles when Louis made his comeback in 1950, Louis won 8 fights without a loss, and 4 of them by knockouts. I'll check again, but I'm sure that was the way it was. Any way, its too minor a point to agrue.

The scores you shared looked very close to being right to me ... only you got Referee Ruby Goldstein to have judged only 6 rounds instead of 7 ... and should have been, 4 rounds for Rocky, 2 for Louis, and 1 even.
 

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JCC said:
First off, Henry, and because I know many people idolized Joe Louis. I want to say this! Let's look to why Rocky fought Joe Louis is the first place?

It all comes down to this ... Louis had made a comeback and he was broke and owned back taxes he hadn't paid and he need the money, and Louis was seeking a title shot and so was Rocky.

Rocky did not want to fight Joe Louis because he feared Louis or because he didn't believe he could beat him.

Rocky was confident that he could beat Louis.

The reason he did not want to fight Louis was only because he had such respect and admiration for Joe Louis.

Hey, especially, in that time who's going to be popular fighting Joe Louis? He had a great many fans who idolized him.

But as for Rocky being worried that he couldn't beat Joe Louis? He wasn't worried about fighting Louis, however. Charley Goldman ... Rocky's trainer .. was a worried about Rocky fighting Louis, he feared that Louis knew to much for Rocky.

Another thing Joe Louis was a big man .. he was six-two and 212 pounds to Rocky's five-ten, 187 pounds, and Louis had a nine-inch reach advantage as well as far more experiene.

Also Louis certianly appeared to be confident he would beat Rocky, he didn't appear to being going into that fight thinking he wasn't going to win.

At age 37, he ... that is, Joe Louis .. was fighting because he needed money just as you earlier said in one of your posts.

Hey, Joe Louis was a great fighter and a former world champion and a great champion .. and champions even former champions seldom even consider defeat when they fight.

But even though Louis natually had slowed with age, he still had the punch ... he banged his sparring partners around the ring in training for the fight in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey real good, he still had the punch.

Just a few days before the fight with Rocky, Louis flattened a sparring partner Holly Smith, and Louis said he had come to fight. He told newspaper reporters that he was going to get the knockout and flatten Rocky. Louis appeared to have been really be up for the fight. He was planning to win ... he wanted a title shot ... just as Rocky did.

That doesn't sound like Louis was a wussie to me ... does it to you?

I say Joe Louis was an older man and past his prime when he fought Rocky, but still a real tough guy and no pushover. Maybe you think differently about it. But that's how I see it.

As for your mention Louis having the 3 wins by knockout instead 4. I got that after Louis lost the title bid to Ezzard Charles when Louis made his comeback in 1950, Louis won 8 fights without a loss, and 4 of them by knockouts. I'll check again, but I'm sure that was they way it was. Any way, its too minor a point to agrue.

The scores you shared looked very close to being right to me ... only you got Referee Ruby Goldstein to have judged only 6 rounds instead of 7 ... and should have been, 4 rounds for Rocky, 2 for Louis, and 1 even.


JC, your 100% right!

Louis made his comeback because he owed back taxes. He also thought he could beat Rocky, what fighter goes into the ring and doesn't.

Back in 1999, in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey, where Louis trained for years, I MC'ed the unveiling of the Joe Louis Memorial Park Monument just days after I MC'ed the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp. Their were several ex-world champions & contenders there including 6 time world title holder Emile Griffith, Joey Giardello, Jimmy Bivins, Chuck Wepner, Lou Duva, Coley Wallace, Ali and Frazier's daughters, Bert Sugar, Dave Anderson, Joe Louis Jr., Dino Duva and many more. We had over 1,000 people in attendance.

Bert Sugar who is one of the leading boxing historians in the world and has written several books on sports trivia started asking me some questions. I answered each and everyone of them. Then he asked one that he stated that nobody has ever answered. Well before he took another buff on his cigar, I gave him the answer (it was on baseball). He stated that I was good, real good. I made a BIG HIT with all the people at both affairs by introducing all the athletes one at a time and giving a brief history on all their careers. I hope I didn't bore you with this but I thought some of you might be interested.

As far as Holly Smith goes, he wasn't even a pro boxer at the time. At least I don't have any records of him. I do know of a Eddie "Polly" Smith, who was a Light Heavyweight at the time and finished his career with a 16-15-5 with 8 KO's and was stopped 4 times. That could have been him, as he was boxing around Jersey and New York around that time.

As far as the Goldstein score card goes, that is the way they use to score fights. I do believe that it should have been 4-2-1, but I guess they never scored the even rounds back then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Hey, Henry. I don't think that's boring at all what you said about the Joe Louis Memorial and Bert Sugar. That's great!

Seems to me I read a post yesterday, you said you was ring annoucer at some pro fight yesterday, but I don't remember exactly where ... so how did the fight go?

As for your mention about others sports baseball ... really I don't know why? But since I took up boxing at the gym at age 9, in 1960, could have been late 1959, but I think was in 1960 when I was a kid. Maybe I'm weird ... but I just could never get interested in other sports not even football. It all bored me. It has always be boxing with me. Really its only been the only sport I'd ever cared all that much for. Maybe because my father was a fighter and I am in a certian sense born into the thing, and so close to it even from the day I was born. When I was born my dad's trainer even had given me my name ... that is, my nickname "Butch." I think it must have been a kind of popular nickname when I was born in 1951. I'm not sure.

As for your mention of Holly Smith I have no further information on him. But it maybe be he was amatuer boxer at the time he was a sparring partner for Joe Louis.

But maybe such things as that isn't or wasn't so unusual for I know that a few years before my dad turned pro as a lightweight fighter ... he was Wille Pep's sparring partner here in Texas in the early 1950's when Willie was here preparing for a world title fight. At the time my dad was Willie's sparring partner he was the golden gloves lightweight state champion and before that the golden gloves state featherweight champion several times.

I had always been curious about that too. My dad is now 74 years old, even recently I had asked him about it on Thanksgiving Day ... during our family get togather.

"Hey, dad. Tell me about the time you was a sparring partner for Willie Pep. What was it like to be in the ring with him?" My dad just smiles and says "Oh, you know just sparring just like sparring with anybody else." I say "Oh, come on, pop, Wille was one of the greats!" LOL

And I've never been able to ever get him to say any thing more about it than that. But only to just praise Willie as being one of the greats, and as being a really nice guy.

Any way, I'm wanting to get around to near calling this Marciano-Louis Fight ... near as possible round per round .. for I just love re-living the old fights in a certian sense.

Sometimes I think I was born too late ... I just have been born in 1931 instead of 1951. Because I like that era back in the late 1940s and 1950s ... and boxing especially as it was especially in that era too. Also the fact that things seem to be more innocent back then, and far different than the way things are today.

Just a little more before I get more into this Marciano-Louis fight ... as I saw it (on tape). I just want to say a little more now about Joe Louis .. or at least what I think I know about Joe Louis and about the time too he fought Rocky.

As I understand it Joe Louis always had quick reflexes and one hellavua punch. He had quick reflexes and power. He his prime he was great fighter and he had the killer instinct and could get the knockout with either hand.

But also Louis was like every fighter has a weakness, he did not have all that good a balance, and wasn't all that hard to hit with punches. He'd been knocked out only one time, but knocked down many times.

Max Schmeling, Jersey Joe Walcott, Buddy Baer, Two-ton Tony Galento, and some others that could also be named had floored him.

I had also read something about Joe Louis's amatuerr boxing career that he was once over matched in a bout with an Olymic boxer a guy named Johnny Miller who knocked Louis down 7 times in 2 rounds.

But Louis developed in into being later a really great fighter always moving forward and seem to be invincible. He forced his opponents to fight defensively and alot of them would be afraid of him and paralyzed with fear long before they entered the ring with him.

Its my experience of once being there as an amatuer that boxing is as much mental as physical and even more so mental in certian sense than physical.

As for Rocky Marciano .. no question he had alot of bottom to him, he had the guts of a lion, and that was just his nature just the way he was and he was like bull charging and brawler always, always on the offense.

Going into the fight with Louis ... Rocky had 37 fights and had knocked out all but 5 of his opponents as a professional without having never been beaten by any body.

Rocky was confident of beating Louis going into the fight.

But public bragging and boosting was not Rocky's way. He was proud and confident ... and would always say he'll win to his friends, but he never liked guys who'd going around boasting about how good they are publicly, and his favorite saying was "Do it. Don't talk about it."

I like that!

Kind of like what you said, Henry, why would a guy be fighting guy if he didn't think he'd win.

On the other hand, as I watched Evander Holyfield's first fight here in Dallas on making his recent comeback against the insurance salesman Jermey Bates as I watched how he over all fought in my opinion Bates just gave up and put the gloves to his face due to being over whelmed by Holyfield in the second round ... it became clear to me at least that he was just there for a pay day, and knew he had no chance whatsoever in in beating Holyfield and knew he was way outclassed going into the fight, and much of the fight as short the fight was in which Holyfield won by a TKO in the 2 nd round, and near got it in the 1 st round. It was clear to me at least that Bates was just there for a payday. Hey, for him $ 20,000 was good pay day for what? Just a little more than just a few minutes work.

And what about Holyfield? Three quarters of a million dollars for just a little more than just a few minutes work.

Joe Louis no doubt was even more desperate for money than those two guys were ... but I don't see that his fight with Rocky Marciano had been that kind of deal. I hope you are understanding what I'd trying to say?
 

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I ring announced at the Paradise Theater, Bronx, New York. They had 7 bouts, Kevin Johnson and Elvir Muriqi were the headliners.

Talking about Louis, his balance wasn't the Greatest, BUT he always, or almost always got up. Only Schmeling and Rocky hold knockout wins over him. In the bout with Schmeling, I heard many stories from people that were around him at that time and I'll just say, he was doing things before the bout that he shouldn't have done.

See I go by the facts and here are the facts:

Louis fought 43 different boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another 54 times. He also fought 32 different fighters 40 that were rated in the top ten when he fought them.

Ali fought 38 different boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another 49 times. He also fought 28 different fighters 39 that were rated in the top ten when he fought them.

Rocky fought only 13 different boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another 16 times. He also fought only 8 different fighters 11 that were rated in the top ten when he fought them.

When Louis retired in 1948, he had record of 60-1, with 52 knockouts (other sources have it 59-1, with 51 knockouts). In his last 9 bouts before boxing Rocky he went 8-1 with only 3 knockouts.

Rocky really never went against a Great puncher in their prime. Archie Moore holds the all-time record for knockouts, BUT most of his knockouts were against Middleweights and Light Heavyweights. Walcott had 32 knockouts in 71 bouts.

I would have liked to see if Rocky could take the punches of Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Frazier or Tyson. It would have been interesting to see.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Henry, you say you go by the facts. I believe you do.

I read what you wrote ... but what about the fact that Joe Louis stayed too long, and Rocky chose not to do so?

I don't see that you have taken that into consideration at all.

You want to go by facts?

What about those facts?
 

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JCC said:
Henry, you say you go by the facts. I believe you do.

I read what you wrote ... but what about the fact that Joe Louis stayed too long, and Rocky chose not to do so?

I don't see that you have taken that into consideration at all.

You want to go by facts?

What about those facts?

Louis retired after the 2nd Walcott bout. He came back when he owed money for back taxes. I really don't see what that has to do when you rate them.

I do go by ALL THE FACTS, not just the records. Rocky got out when he was 32 years old and Louis at the age of 37, was still boxing because he had too.

By the way, I have the Western Union written when Louis gave his money to the Army Relief Fund when he fought Buddy Baer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
hhascup said:
By the way, I have the Western Union written when Louis gave his money to the Army Relief Fund when he fought Buddy Baer.
Interesting, Joe apparently was a great guy and no doubt great fighter and champion ... that I do know. But he just blew his dough. Rocky was smarter ... and he was too old getting starting any way, and as for his amatuer record it wasn't so hot either, 12 fights with 4 losses ... I can say that I was a better fighter by far in the amatuer ranks than he was. In fact, he didn't even know how to fight when he first turned pro either. This makes his story more interesting. As a fighter he did everything wrong until he got Charley Goldman as his trainer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Okay, let's now get into this fight!

A crowd of 17,241 fans at the Madison Square Garden and millions watching on national television saw an unusual fight, and what was unusual about it was that for the first time ... Joe Louis who was a master stalker ... was not the aggressor in this fight.

This is just calling the fight as I saw it!

From the time of the opening bell ... Rocky Marciano relentlessly pursued Louis .. and Joe reponse to it was to use his famed left jab and in trying in trying to keep Rocky at a disadvantage by trying to keep Rocky ... one and half to two steps away from him.

Of course, remember that Joe had a three inch height advantage ... over Rocky .. and near 30 pound weight advantage, Joe also a nine inch reach advantage ... over Rocky, and Joe was also the by far more experienced fighter than Rocky.

In the first rounds ... for five rounds it was Rocky pursuing Louis and Joe backing up .. and working the left jab a lot to try and keep Rocky from fighting in close and being able to caught Joe with a big punch that could hurt him, and Joe's left jab .. was very effective.

Rocky's strategy was to press Joe and to make him tire, by staying low and trying to get under Joe ... and to keep coming up at him with his head .. to keep Joe backing up. The first thing that will usually go out on a fighter is his legs ... and when a fighter has to move backwards a lot in the ring, or is forced to do so .. he will tire faster.

Rocky worked to cut the ring off on Louis ... and the place Rocky wanted Joe was against the ropes ... knowing he could be more effective in fighting Joe there and have more chance of being able to land big punches that could hurt Louis.

Rocky knew that if he were not keep low, and that if he stood up straight in the middle of the ring, and just boxed Louis that he wouldn't be able to win the fight.

By the end of the first five rounds Louis's left cheek was raw from Rocky's punches and had begun to swell and there was mouse under his right eye, and as for Rocky his nose had begun to bleed and there was a slight cut at the corner of his eye.

It was a good fight .. and in the eyes of the judges Rocky was slightly ahead of Louis at the end of the first five rounds.

TO BE CONTINUED .... how Rocky won the fight by getting the knock out!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Calling the rest of the Marciano-Louis fight as I saw it.

The fact that Joe Louis was a by far more experienced fighter than Rocky Marciano was evident when the both came within closer range during the fight throwing punches. Louis appeared to have caught Marciano with some good upper cuts, only Joe appeared to be cautious in using his famed and onced very powerful left jabs which may have been out of respect for Marciano's looping over hand right that had gotten Rocky so many of his knock outs in fights. For that's a punch that can be thrown of over left jab ... and no doubt was the reason in Joe was being more caution in using his left jab.

By the end on the six round ... Joe appeared exhausted ... Joe was an older fighter and past his prime .. and Rocky keeping the fight tight ... and the pressure on Louis was paying off.

In the seventh round ... Marciano kept the pressure on Louis backing him up .. Louis appearing to be tiring more and more ... and the price Rocky paid for it was taking a lot of Joe's jabs .. in trying to keep Rocky at least one and half to two steps away from him .. Louis had the advantage of having a much longer reach than Rocky.

But Joe was slowing he was getting tired ... and no longer up on his toes .. and now flat footed ... but far from quiting or giving up.

Then Marciano ... caught Louis with two good lefts and a right to the jaw .. followed with good left hook that caught Joe on the side of the head.

Rocky was winning the fight ... Referee Rudy Goldstein had it four rounds for Rocky, two for Louis, and one even: Judge Joe Angelo had Rocky ahead, five rounds for Marciano, and two for Louis; and Judge Harold Barnes had Rocky ahead with four rounds, and three rounds for Louis.

In the eight round ... Rocky got Joe against the ropes .. and caught Joe with a short left hook and Joe collapsed, he went down to the canvas and it put the fans on their feet. For there was Joe Louis the famed brown bomber laying there flat on his back. But he rolled over immediately and rose to one knee and the crowd wanted this legendary hero and great man to come off the canvas.

No doubt the sentiment of the Joe Louis fans glazed their powers of reasoning, no doubt many thought Louis could recover and still win the fight.

Joe took the full eight count ... and began to rise to his feet .. Joe was staggered ... his eyes were cloudy and his head seemed to have bobbed instinctively as Marciano then came directly at him .. sensing he could get the knock out.

Louis waited, but not with fear --- although surely he knew the inevitable ... but with pride and determination. Joe Louis had been a great champion, and while even great champions can lose. But their hearts will not accept defeat.

Now Rocky really began to give it to Louis and there was nothing gentle about it either ... he saw his opportunity and he took it .. he was going for the knock out.

Rocky got Louis up against the ropes again and caught Joe with two good left hooks ... and Joe's eyes went vacant, he was exhausted and his arms came down and hung at his sides and he began to sag, and was helpless, unable to prevent his own annihilation.

Rocky moved in to finish Louis off and caught Joe with a big punch ... a right .. that caught Louis solid on the jaw .. that sent Joe reeling backwards and through the ropes flat on his back on the apron of the ring with one leg remaining in the ring.

Referee Rudy Goldstein ... began the count, but when he reached three or four .. he waved his arms, signaling that the fight was over ...
 
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