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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There are several reasons to why Rocky Marciano retired.

First, lets clear some things up.

Rocky Marciano did not duck Floyd Patterson. Patterson was a light heavyweight when Marciano retired, and Patterson jumped at a chance to win the heavyweight crown.

Rocky Marciano did not duck Sonny Liston. Liston was not a big fighter by the time that Marciano retired, and he did not deserve a title shot.

I want anyone to give me a name on somebody that Marciano ducked.

The first reason that Marciano retired was because he had a terrible back. When Marciano says something is bad.... its horrible.

The second reason is because who is there to fight. There was no more big name fighters that deserved a title shot, and he had beaten everybody worthy.

The third reason was because he hated his promoter Al Weill. Weill got half of all of Marcianos earnings, and Marciano hated him so much that he did not want to give Weill another dime. Marciano's father cooked for Marciano while Marciano was training, and Al Weill went into the kitchen and yelled at his father for cooking the food. Then Marciano went in there and told Weill never to speak to his father like that again. I would have said, "You talk to him like that again, and I'll kill you." litterally.

What do you guys think?
 

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The Professor
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There are several reasons to why Rocky Marciano retired.

First, lets clear some things up.

Rocky Marciano did not duck Floyd Patterson. Patterson was a light heavyweight when Marciano retired, and Patterson jumped at a chance to win the heavyweight crown.

Rocky Marciano did not duck Sonny Liston. Liston was not a big fighter by the time that Marciano retired, and he did not deserve a title shot.

I want anyone to give me a name on somebody that Marciano ducked.

The first reason that Marciano retired was because he had a terrible back. When Marciano says something is bad.... its horrible.

The second reason is because who is there to fight. There was no more big name fighters that deserved a title shot, and he had beaten everybody worthy.

The third reason was because he hated his promoter Al Weill. Weill got half of all of Marcianos earnings, and Marciano hated him so much that he did not want to give Weill another dime. Marciano's father cooked for Marciano while Marciano was training, and Al Weill went into the kitchen and yelled at his father for cooking the food. Then Marciano went in there and told Weill never to speak to his father like that again. I would have said, "You talk to him like that again, and I'll kill you." litterally.

What do you guys think?
Top Contenders Marciano beat:

Moore – Height: 5'11" || Weight: 188 lbs || Reach: 75”
Cockell – Height: 5'11" || Weight: 205 lbs || Reach: 71”
Charles – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 185 ½ & 192 ½ lbs || Reach: 73”
LaStarza – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 187 & 184 ¾ lbs || Reach: ??
Walcott – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 196 ½ & 197 ¾ lbs || Reach: 74”
Matthews – Height: 5'10 ¾” || Weight: 179 lbs || Reach: ??
Layne – Height: ?? || Weight: 193 lbs || Reach: ??
Louis – Height: 6'2" || Weight: 213 ¾ lbs || Reach: 76”

Top Contenders Marciano didn't fight:

This list shows the highest rank these fighters had in brackets and their current record in parenthesis

Nino Valdez [1] - 6’3” – 210 – (48-19-2)
Bob Baker [2] - 6’2” – 215 – (51-16-1)
Dan Bucceroni [3] - 6’2” – 190 – (46-6)
Tommy Jackson [3]- 6' 3½” – 195 – (34-9-1)
John Holman [4] - 6’3” – 205 (27-17-1)
Earl Walls [5] - 6'2½” – 192 – (34-9-1)
Heinz Neuhaus [6] – 6’2” – 212 (43-9-7)
Karel Sys [9] – 5’11” – 210 – (114-17-10)
Young Jack Johnson [9] – 6’3” – 208 – (24-20-1)
Coley Wallace [10] – 6’2” – 205 – (20-7)


Deduction:

From the information seen here we can deduce that the only man Rocky ever beat over 6 ft tall and 200 lbs was Joe Louis. In professional boxing today, you are not Heavyweight until you weigh ABOVE 200 lbs.

7/10 of the second group of fighters weigh above 200 lbs. 6 of them are at least 6'2”. The remaining 3 fighters are 6'2”, 6'2 ½”, and 6'3 ½”. Given the dimensions of the top contenders Marciano did fight, there seems to be a severe disparity in size compared to the one's he didn't.
 

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Notice the quality of fighters though. Out of Marciano's title defences, 4 of them were against hall of famers.

Also, Marciano fought the 6'1, hard hitting, Rex Layne who lingered around the top 10. And he fought the 6'4 Carmine Vingo, who Marciano put into a coma with 1 punch. Vingo's bright looking career was cut short due to that one punch.
 

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The Professor
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Notice the quality of fighters though. Out of Marciano's title defences, 4 of them were against hall of famers.

Also, Marciano fought the 6'1, hard hitting, Rex Layne who lingered around the top 10. And he fought the 6'4 Carmine Vingo, who Marciano put into a coma with 1 punch. Vingo's bright looking career was cut short due to that one punch.
Some of the guys I listed have victories over the guys Rocky beat, including the hall of famers.

And how did you count 4 hall of famers?

Lastly, how did you find out Rex Layne's official height. I've searched and came up with nothing.
 

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Some of the guys I listed have victories over the guys Rocky beat, including the hall of famers.

And how did you count 4 hall of famers?

Lastly, how did you find out Rex Layne's official height. I've searched and came up with nothing.
Not 4 different hall of famers, but 4 of his defences were against a hall of famer. Walcott (once), Charles (twice), and Moore (once). 1+2+1=4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Joe Louis.

I don't know if Layne was 6'1". I remember seeing the fight between two equally sized men.

And I do not think that Marciano ducked those men. He was fighting the better challengers first. Like, for instance, Moore, Charles, and La Starza. Cockell may or may not be the best person for Marciano to fight at that time though. Marciano surely did not retire because of those men listed though.
 

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The Professor
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Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Joe Louis.

I don't know if Layne was 6'1". I remember seeing the fight between two equally sized men.

And I do not think that Marciano ducked those men. He was fighting the better challengers first. Like, for instance, Moore, Charles, and La Starza. Cockell may or may not be the best person for Marciano to fight at that time though. Marciano surely did not retire because of those men listed though.
Joe Louis wasn't a title defense, I wasn't asking you this question, I asked bill, he answered.

I didn't say Marciano ducked them. I just said he didn't fight them, and proved they were significantly larger than the men he defended the belt against, then included that their ranks were still high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Joe Louis wasn't a title defense, I wasn't asking you this question, I asked bill, he answered.

I didn't say Marciano ducked them. I just said he didn't fight them, and proved they were significantly larger than the men he defended the belt against, then included that their ranks were still high.
Sorry, I misread the comments.

Well, I did ask for fighters that he did duck, and when you posted top contenders that he did not fight I thought that you were saying that Marciano ducked them.

BTW, Are you sure that Cockell was 205 pounds? He looked a lot fatter to me.
 

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Sorry, I misread the comments.

Well, I did ask for fighters that he did duck, and when you posted top contenders that he did not fight I thought that you were saying that Marciano ducked them.

BTW, Are you sure that Cockell was 205 pounds? He looked a lot fatter to me.
Yes, he did look chubby, but that is because he had a disorder. He was really in good shape.
 

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Top Contenders Marciano beat:

Moore – Height: 5'11" || Weight: 188 lbs || Reach: 75”
Cockell – Height: 5'11" || Weight: 205 lbs || Reach: 71”
Charles – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 185 ½ & 192 ½ lbs || Reach: 73”
LaStarza – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 187 & 184 ¾ lbs || Reach: ??
Walcott – Height: 6'0" || Weight: 196 ½ & 197 ¾ lbs || Reach: 74”
Matthews – Height: 5'10 ¾” || Weight: 179 lbs || Reach: ??
Layne – Height: ?? || Weight: 193 lbs || Reach: ??
Louis – Height: 6'2" || Weight: 213 ¾ lbs || Reach: 76”

Top Contenders Marciano didn't fight:

This list shows the highest rank these fighters had in brackets and their current record in parenthesis

Nino Valdez [1] - 6’3” – 210 – (48-19-2)
Bob Baker [2] - 6’2” – 215 – (51-16-1)
Dan Bucceroni [3] - 6’2” – 190 – (46-6)
Tommy Jackson [3]- 6' 3½” – 195 – (34-9-1)
John Holman [4] - 6’3” – 205 (27-17-1)
Earl Walls [5] - 6'2½” – 192 – (34-9-1)
Heinz Neuhaus [6] – 6’2” – 212 (43-9-7)
Karel Sys [9] – 5’11” – 210 – (114-17-10)
Young Jack Johnson [9] – 6’3” – 208 – (24-20-1)
Coley Wallace [10] – 6’2” – 205 – (20-7)


Deduction:

From the information seen here we can deduce that the only man Rocky ever beat over 6 ft tall and 200 lbs was Joe Louis. In professional boxing today, you are not Heavyweight until you weigh ABOVE 200 lbs.

7/10 of the second group of fighters weigh above 200 lbs. 6 of them are at least 6'2”. The remaining 3 fighters are 6'2”, 6'2 ½”, and 6'3 ½”. Given the dimensions of the top contenders Marciano did fight, there seems to be a severe disparity in size compared to the one's he didn't.
That list looks a lot like mine:

Here's another list of all the contenders of Rocky's era when he was the Champion.

The ones in BOLD is who he fought. I also included their career record


1. Jersey Joe Walcott (1) – 6’0” – 197 – (51-18-2)

2. Archie Moore (1) – 5’11” – 188 – (185-23-11)
3. Nino Valdez (1) - 6’3” – 210 – (48-19-2)
4. Ezzard Charles (2) – 6”0” – 190 – (89-25-1)
5. Don Cockell (2) – 5’11” – 205 – (65-14-1)
6. Rex Layne (2) – 6’1” – 193 – (50-17-3)
7. Bob Baker (2) - 6’2” – 215 – (51-16-1)
8. Dan Bucceroni (3) - 6’2” – 190 – (46-6)
9. Tommy Jackson (3)- 6' 3½” – 195 – (34-9-1)
10. Roland LaStarza (4) – 6’0” – 185 – (57-9)
11. John Holman (4) - 6’3” – 205 (27-17-1)
12. Bob Dunlop (4) – 182 _ (30-13-1)
13. Clarence Henry (5) - 6’1” – 185 – (34-6-1)
14. Earl Walls (5) - 6'2½” – 192 – (34-9-1)
15. Willie Pastrano (5) – 6’0” – 175 – (63-13-8)
16. Johnny Williams (6) – 195 – (60-11-4)
17. Heinz Neuhaus (6) – 6’2” – 212 (43-9-7)
18. Johnny Summerlin (7) – 6’1” – 195 – (35-8-2)
19. Tommy Harrison (8) – 182 – (22-13-2)
20. Bob Satterfield (8) – 6’2” – 185 – (50-25-4)
21. Karel Sys (9) – 5’11” – 210 – (114-17-10)
22. Charley Norkus (9) – 6’0” – 195 – (33-19)
23. Young Jack Johnson (9) – 6’3” – 208 – (24-20-1)
24. Jimmy Bivins (10) – 5’9” – 185 – (86-25-1)
25. Coley Wallace (10) – 6’2” – 205 – (20-7)
26. Jimmy Slade (10) – 180 – (36-23-6)
Others that were rated during that time were:
1. Paul Andrews – 6’3” – 180 – (37-10)
2. Bill Gilliam – 6’2” – 210 - (30-20-2)
3. James J. Parker – 6’3” – 210 - (30-7-4-)
4. Franco Cavicchi – 202 – (71-14-4)
5. Cesar Brion - 6'2½” – 202 – (32-7-4)

By the way, I just came back from the press conference with Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. I was one of the guess speaker, along with Don King. King really loved the way I talked on the history of boxing in Newark, New Jersey and the 3rd Zale/Graziano bout. He said it sounded like he was right their. In fact Kathy Duva said, it takes a lot to out do Don King, BUT you did it.

She also told everyone before I spoke that I was the expert when it comes to boxing and the history of the sport and she couldn't think of no one else that could do a better job. Right after my talk, she said didn't I tell you, and how are we going to top that. Don King said I sounded like another Don Dunphy and after his speech which lasted over a LONG LONG time, he congratulated me. Great stuff !!!



http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16542
 

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Notice the quality of fighters though. Out of Marciano's title defences, 4 of them were against hall of famers.

Also, Marciano fought the 6'1, hard hitting, Rex Layne who lingered around the top 10. And he fought the 6'4 Carmine Vingo, who Marciano put into a coma with 1 punch. Vingo's bright looking career was cut short due to that one punch.
I agree, Rex Layne was a very good boxer and had a record of 34-1-2 when he fought Rocky AND he was 6'1" BUT weighed under 200 pounds (193).

BUT, Vingo was not a top 10 contender. He was 16-1-0 when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before he fought Rocky he had only 1 KO, and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut.

Also, before he fought Rocky, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds. AND he was just 2 days passed his 20th birthday.

Good Prospect, BUT far from a contender.

I think I stated that before!
 

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I agree, Rex Layne was a very good boxer and had a record of 34-1-2 when he fought Rocky AND he was 6'1" BUT weighed under 200 pounds (193).

BUT, Vingo was not a top 10 contender. He was 16-1-0 when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before he fought Rocky he had only 1 KO, and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut.

Also, before he fought Rocky, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds. AND he was just 2 days passed his 20th birthday.

Good Prospect, BUT far from a contender.

I think I stated that before!
Yes, I know Vingo wasn't a contender, but he more than likely would have become one had he not ran into the "Brockton Blockbuster". Very sad fight.
 

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The Professor
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Yes, I know Vingo wasn't a contender, but he more than likely would have become one had he not ran into the "Brockton Blockbuster". Very sad fight.
Well, losing to Rocky doesn't keep you from becoming a contender...you just go out there and beat other people. He couldn't do it. If your theory is that Rocky broke him and he was never the same again....this would seem to be your theory about just everyone Rocky fought. Your descriptions of this guy make him sound like an immortal sometimes.
 

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Yes, I know Vingo wasn't a contender, but he more than likely would have become one had he not ran into the "Brockton Blockbuster". Very sad fight.
You can't go by what if. He never was tested, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds, he only stopped 1 of his last 7 opponents and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut and finished his career with record of 0-4-1, being stopped all 4 times. The only time he wasn't stopped was when they stopped and declared a draw when both boxers collided head-on and ripped nasty gashes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well, losing to Rocky doesn't keep you from becoming a contender...you just go out there and beat other people. He couldn't do it. If your theory is that Rocky broke him and he was never the same again....this would seem to be your theory about just everyone Rocky fought. Your descriptions of this guy make him sound like an immortal sometimes.
Umm... the dude nearly died. I think that is pretty good grounds for quitting boxing. I probably would two. It's not like he would quit after only 2 losses because he couldn't win , which he did 16 times. Marciano beat Vingo into retirement.

and hhascup, all that Vingo's record was saying was that he was a good boxer who could beat people on points, but did not have that good of a punch. A lot like Sven Ottke (34-0 6KOs.) Having only 6 KOs does not make Ottke a bad fighter, it just means that he did not have a good punch.
 

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The Professor
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Umm... the dude nearly died. I think that is pretty good grounds for quitting boxing. I probably would two. It's not like he would quit after only 2 losses because he couldn't win , which he did 16 times. Marciano beat Vingo into retirement.

and hhascup, all that Vingo's record was saying was that he was a good boxer who could beat people on points, but did not have that good of a punch. A lot like Sven Ottke (34-0 6KOs.) Having only 6 KOs does not make Ottke a bad fighter, it just means that he did not have a good punch.
You have to beat real competition to be good. Vingo and Sven didn't have any real competition, not to mention Sven robbed a lot of the fighters he beat.
 
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