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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Who do you think makes the top 2 of all time? I have Pep as #1 and Whitaker as #2. Both of which are both very close and had out standing head movement.
 

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Yeah its hard to make a top 10 cause imo these are in a legue of their own.

Others that i can think of are Mayweather jr., Ali, Roy Jones (prime),SRL, Ray Robinson and others that im forgetting. Tyson actually had a pretty solid defense when he wanted too (and wasnt tired :p)
 

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You Cant Even Have A Debate On This Unless You Just Go By Stats, And Even Then Its Difficult To Say. Because Boxing Is Like Football And Any Other Full Contact Sport. The Game Changes Drastically Every Era, And Its Not Like We Can Pit The Old Agaisnt The New. For Example In The Early Ages Of Boxing Everything Was Based Upon Power And Toughness. Now Its Speed And Quickness. I Dont Think you Could Pick Two Overall But You Could Pick One From Every Era
 

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James And Mayweather

James Toney and Mayweather are in the top 5 both of them master the hitman stance. James toney Perfected the ART with nothing but pure SKILL. Mayweather over the years has also mastered the technique but uses it a little bit different but is really perfected. MIke Tyson was almost un hittable in his prime with weave and bob ALI would have to be 3 he was to fast to be caught but was that a naturally ability or skill
 

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I would say pernell whitaker, floyd mayweather, james tony and willie pep. However, in todays world, barrera, morales, pacquiao, marquez and even prince naseem would of been to much for pep to handle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If Pep was fighting the guys of today he would be getting nailed. I agree with P4PKING that the game changes.
I disagree. The favorite style changes. In the 20's-mid 60's the sluggers were more popular, the 70's there was nofavorite, and the 80's was the slick guys like Leonard. The 90's and early 2000's was the warriors like Holyfield and Gatti. Also another big difference is the film quality and the numerous angles. 50 years ago black and white had just been perfected for there to be very little fuzz effects on the TV, and they usually had 1 or 2 camera's filming the fight. They never would even think about having 8-9 different angles and zooming in real far.

A good example is in your sig Shane, the Pavlik-Taylor thing. It shows in slow motion ever little effect and detail on Taylor's face as he got hit, it did the same thing then they just didn't care to see it.
 

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You Cant Even Have A Debate On This Unless You Just Go By Stats, And Even Then Its Difficult To Say. Because Boxing Is Like Football And Any Other Full Contact Sport. The Game Changes Drastically Every Era, And Its Not Like We Can Pit The Old Agaisnt The New. For Example In The Early Ages Of Boxing Everything Was Based Upon Power And Toughness. Now Its Speed And Quickness. I Dont Think you Could Pick Two Overall But You Could Pick One From Every Era
Football got bigger over the years, with the media exposure and the implementation of such sport in schools and colleges the numbers of players increased, increasing the competition and therefore the game level...
But BOxing isnt Football... Somehow boxing isnt more popular than it used to be 80 years ago (in terms of ppl actualy joining the sport, not expectators it self duh)...Not to mention, it used to be more popular back there: Today if you are a big guy you will probably end up playing basketball or football before even thinking about boxing, and 80 years back boxing was the 3rd sport in the world, so would think about boxing before those...
Take a guy like Willie Pep, he praticed in a very tight routine, eating drinking sleeping on boxing, fighting over 200 times, so when a punch comes to him he knows how to handle it, boxing didnt change as mush as Football, first - because its an individual sport and not a coletive, so tatically it didnt change so much; second - its still is the same thing, guys throwing punches at your head or body, the punches speed barely changed over the years right...;third point: Willie Pep's case, his skills and style worked over 200 times with as many matchups as you could imagine...
The only reasonable argument you could make about it would be the phisicality of the sport, nutrition...
 

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Football got bigger over the years, with the media exposure and the implementation of such sport in schools and colleges the numbers of players increased, increasing the competition and therefore the game level...
But BOxing isnt Football... Somehow boxing isnt more popular than it used to be 80 years ago (in terms of ppl actualy joining the sport, not expectators it self duh)...Not to mention, it used to be more popular back there: Today if you are a big guy you will probably end up playing basketball or football before even thinking about boxing, and 80 years back boxing was the 3rd sport in the world, so would think about boxing before those...
Take a guy like Willie Pep, he praticed in a very tight routine, eating drinking sleeping on boxing, fighting over 200 times, so when a punch comes to him he knows how to handle it, boxing didnt change as mush as Football, first - because its an individual sport and not a coletive, so tatically it didnt change so much; second - its still is the same thing, guys throwing punches at your head or body, the punches speed barely changed over the years right...;third point: Willie Pep's case, his skills and style worked over 200 times with as many matchups as you could imagine...
The only reasonable argument you could make about it would be the phisicality of the sport,
nutrition...
You Took everything I Said Out Of Context. When I Said They Were Alike I Meant In The Sense Of Evolution. And Reguardless Of weither Football Has Been Implemented Into High School OR Colleges What You Did On '01 You Cant Even Think Of Doing In '02 Let alone A Matchup Like The 85 Bears Vs. The 07 Pats(the Bears Have No Shot) But Every Era There's A Top fighter, And That top Fighter Has A Generation Of Followers. Ali To Holmes And Leonard, Liston To Foreman And Roy Jones To....Well All The Fighters That Thought They Could Be Him. And I Disagree Tactically Boxing Changed Immensely. Its Less Heart And More Brains. And Boxing Speed Changed A Hell Of Alot, When You Hear About The Fastest Fighters You Hear More About The Guys From The Late 70's To The 2000's, than You Do From The 20's To The 60's. But ITs Not Just Speed. It's More Technique, Craftier Fighters, Better Trainers And Trainning Sessions Therefore Better Prepared, And More Intelligent Fighters. If You Were To Pit The Best Pure Boxers From The 70's And Up, Against The Best Pure Boxers From The 60's And Down, The 70's And Up Have A Way Better Shot Of Winning. Just Saying Boxing Is The Same Was Ridiculous, Just Becuz Guys Throw Punches At Your Head And Body. Thats Basically Sayin The Only Way you Can Score In Football Is Running Or Passing. ITs How Your Gameplan Is Carried Out That Matters.

P.S. I Dont Know Much On Willie Pep Other Than The Lil ESPN Classic I;ve Seen On Him But I Doubt He's Seen A Fighter With the Speed Of Today, Hell I Doubt He's Faced Many Speedy Fighters
 

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You Took everything I Said Out Of Context. When I Said They Were Alike I Meant In The Sense Of Evolution. And Reguardless Of weither Football Has Been Implemented Into High School OR Colleges What You Did On '01 You Cant Even Think Of Doing In '02 Let alone A Matchup Like The 85 Bears Vs. The 07 Pats(the Bears Have No Shot) But Every Era There's A Top fighter, And That top Fighter Has A Generation Of Followers. Ali To Holmes And Leonard, Liston To Foreman And Roy Jones To....Well All The Fighters That Thought They Could Be Him. And I Disagree Tactically Boxing Changed Immensely. Its Less Heart And More Brains. And Boxing Speed Changed A Hell Of Alot, When You Hear About The Fastest Fighters You Hear More About The Guys From The Late 70's To The 2000's, than You Do From The 20's To The 60's. But ITs Not Just Speed. It's More Technique, Craftier Fighters, Better Trainers And Trainning Sessions Therefore Better Prepared, And More Intelligent Fighters. If You Were To Pit The Best Pure Boxers From The 70's And Up, Against The Best Pure Boxers From The 60's And Down, The 70's And Up Have A Way Better Shot Of Winning. Just Saying Boxing Is The Same Was Ridiculous, Just Becuz Guys Throw Punches At Your Head And Body. Thats Basically Sayin The Only Way you Can Score In Football Is Running Or Passing. ITs How Your Gameplan Is Carried Out That Matters.

P.S. I Dont Know Much On Willie Pep Other Than The Lil ESPN Classic I;ve Seen On Him But I Doubt He's Seen A Fighter With the Speed Of Today, Hell I Doubt He's Faced Many Speedy Fighters
When I was talking about speed i was more talking about the time the punch takes to land, not the handspeed as for combination.anyways
Speed is the kind of thing that is a natural gift, you can train to improve your speed or combos but that will never put you in the same level as Ray Leonard if you werent born with it... Back there in the old times, where boxing used to be more popular, MORE ppl used to join boxing, wich increases the chance of having a speedy fighter in the sport,not the opposite - I think thats pretty clear. What happened is that the bigger punchers and tough fighters used to be more sucessfull back there, lets remember the old rules arent the same as todays, some fights used to go like 20 rounds long or more, so the tough ones had the advantage...
 

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Flloyd mayweather is a great defensive boxer, willie pep as well

i'd also have to say Prince Naseem Hamed, his defence is like nothing seen before, he relied on his fast reflex's alot, which made his defense so good! until he met the mighty barrera obviously!
 

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i don't agree naseem, didn't get put down alot at all, and was always quicker to the punch when he people did try to hit him, he was constantly boncing around and alot of fighters found it hard to plant a good shot on him!
 

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Prince is one of my fav fighteres of all time and had amazing reflexes, but once stewards tried to teach him to box he had to rely more of self made defense than his reflexes. Once that happened his defenese sucked. Up until steward however, he had good defense, he was just off balance. Roy Jones Jr and Mike tyson have seveerly underrated defense. How many times have you seen a heavy duck, slip and dodge punches like prime tyson used to. Jones has the best reflexes of all time when it came to getting away from punches.
 

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i don't agree naseem, didn't get put down alot at all, and was always quicker to the punch when he people did try to hit him, he was constantly boncing around and alot of fighters found it hard to plant a good shot on him!
Still, I wouldnt put his defense as an all-time great defense, because it didnt work against any all-time great...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
You Took everything I Said Out Of Context. When I Said They Were Alike I Meant In The Sense Of Evolution. And Reguardless Of weither Football Has Been Implemented Into High School OR Colleges What You Did On '01 You Cant Even Think Of Doing In '02 Let alone A Matchup Like The 85 Bears Vs. The 07 Pats(the Bears Have No Shot) But Every Era There's A Top fighter, And That top Fighter Has A Generation Of Followers. Ali To Holmes And Leonard, Liston To Foreman And Roy Jones To....Well All The Fighters That Thought They Could Be Him. And I Disagree Tactically Boxing Changed Immensely. Its Less Heart And More Brains. And Boxing Speed Changed A Hell Of Alot, When You Hear About The Fastest Fighters You Hear More About The Guys From The Late 70's To The 2000's, than You Do From The 20's To The 60's. But ITs Not Just Speed. It's More Technique, Craftier Fighters, Better Trainers And Trainning Sessions Therefore Better Prepared, And More Intelligent Fighters. If You Were To Pit The Best Pure Boxers From The 70's And Up, Against The Best Pure Boxers From The 60's And Down, The 70's And Up Have A Way Better Shot Of Winning. Just Saying Boxing Is The Same Was Ridiculous, Just Becuz Guys Throw Punches At Your Head And Body. Thats Basically Sayin The Only Way you Can Score In Football Is Running Or Passing. ITs How Your Gameplan Is Carried Out That Matters.

P.S. I Dont Know Much On Willie Pep Other Than The Lil ESPN Classic I;ve Seen On Him But I Doubt He's Seen A Fighter With the Speed Of Today, Hell I Doubt He's Faced Many Speedy Fighters
The new training methods aren't better. Look at the results it has on the heavyweights. Heavyweights used to be lean and chizzled (how they should look) and they used to be able to go 15 rounds with little problem. Now the heavyweights have a ton of trouble going just 10, and few make it to 12 with out hugging their way through. Even Tony Galento who was know for being really fat was about average for now.

Just because the film quality isn't there, doesn't mean they weren't as fast or powerful. Who is the fastest heavyweight today? Who was faster, them, or Joe Louis, who was faster, them, or even Dempsey. The answer is Louis and Dempsey.

Pep is known by many as the P4P #1. He fought plenty of slick guys. Its hard to name them all considering he had 230 wins and only 11 lost (most of which were post plane crash). The best pure boxers from the 60's on down? Ali (Clay), Pep, Robinson, Johnson, Tunney, Walcott, and Rosenbloom to name a few.

Rocky Marciano is known as one of the most, if not the most conditioned athlete of all time. He used to batter a 300lb bag like it was 100lbs for 60 rounds. He would jog for 10-15 miles every day. Jump rope a ton, and do everything to stay in shape. He is the perfect example of pure old school training. How do you think they fought for 15-20 rounds back then at an active pace?

Film quality has a lot to do with it. Think about it, today everything is high def, back then a lot of the fighters were filmed passed their best. Their best days were heard on the radio and read about in the papers.

Handspeed, power, strength all of that hasn't changed. The only thing thats changed is the lack of skill, which is why the huge guys are winning. Even the not so great big men of the other era's were knocked around quite a bit. Jess Willard and Primo Carnera are good examples.
 

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You Took everything I Said Out Of Context. When I Said They Were Alike I Meant In The Sense Of Evolution. And Reguardless Of weither Football Has Been Implemented Into High School OR Colleges What You Did On '01 You Cant Even Think Of Doing In '02 Let alone A Matchup Like The 85 Bears Vs. The 07 Pats(the Bears Have No Shot) But Every Era There's A Top fighter, And That top Fighter Has A Generation Of Followers. Ali To Holmes And Leonard, Liston To Foreman And Roy Jones To....Well All The Fighters That Thought They Could Be Him. And I Disagree Tactically Boxing Changed Immensely. Its Less Heart And More Brains. And Boxing Speed Changed A Hell Of Alot, When You Hear About The Fastest Fighters You Hear More About The Guys From The Late 70's To The 2000's, than You Do From The 20's To The 60's. But ITs Not Just Speed. It's More Technique, Craftier Fighters, Better Trainers And Trainning Sessions Therefore Better Prepared, And More Intelligent Fighters. If You Were To Pit The Best Pure Boxers From The 70's And Up, Against The Best Pure Boxers From The 60's And Down, The 70's And Up Have A Way Better Shot Of Winning. Just Saying Boxing Is The Same Was Ridiculous, Just Becuz Guys Throw Punches At Your Head And Body. Thats Basically Sayin The Only Way you Can Score In Football Is Running Or Passing. ITs How Your Gameplan Is Carried Out That Matters.

P.S. I Dont Know Much On Willie Pep Other Than The Lil ESPN Classic I;ve Seen On Him But I Doubt He's Seen A Fighter With the Speed Of Today, Hell I Doubt He's Faced Many Speedy Fighters
That right there was a money post! Very nice.
 
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