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Was Archie Moore the greatest Light Heavyweight boxer of all time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 77.8%
  • No

    Votes: 2 22.2%
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JCC said:
I never said he was a greater fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson.

When you read the the list of names I gave ... Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Joey Maxim, Archie, D-ick Tiger and Bob Foster it was in reference to superior light heavyweights.

Sugar Ray was no superior light heavyweight.

Robinson was a superior welterweight and middleweight fighter.

The topic of this discusson is "Was Archie Moore the greatest light heavyweight of all time?" And I said those were the names that come to mind when I think of the greatest light heavyweights.




If someone says to me that Joey Maxin wasn't a great light heavyweight?

I want to ask if they ever saw him fight?

I want to ask really just how much they know about all his opponents.

Just looking at someones record won't tell you all that much if you don't really know any thing about their opponents.

If your only familiar with one of their opponents. It would be really hard for you to be able to evaluate their professional career.

Joey Maxin is considered by many to be one of the greatest light heavyweights.

I don't say Maxin was the greatest light heavyweight of them all. I say he was one of the greatest light heavyweights because he was one of the greatest light heavyweight fighters.

JCC
Joey Maximum might not have been the best Lightheavy of all time, but when you got in the ring with him, you were in a fight. He was a very tough dude.
 

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I never intended to compare Robinson to Maxim .I was just trying to figure what accomplishments
maxim achieved to make you think he was one of the best Lt heavys of all time.I didn't say he was a bad fighter,just not convinced he was one of the best of all time.Reread my post.
 

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niko said:
I never intended to compare Robinson to Maxim .I was just trying to figure what accomplishments
maxim achieved to make you think he was one of the best Lt heavys of all time.I didn't say he was a bad fighter,just not convinced he was one of the best of all time.Reread my post.
Maximum is like a top 20, but not top 10.:)
 

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JCC said:
I superior light heavyweights.

.

.

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Joey Maxin I want to ask really just how much they know about all his opponents.

Just looking at someones record won't tell you all that much if you don't really know any thing about their opponents.

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JCC
Your contradicting yourself here just a little bit.
One of your main reasons why Marciano is so great is because of his record.Now your saying Maxims record won't tell you all that much because all his opponents aren't known.Arguments can be made by anybodys opponents.I agree win loss records do not tell you the whole story.
The way a fighter is guided is very important in getting the most and the best out of him.Many of your past fighters fought because they were hungry,and many times over matched.This could account for records not looking impressive.
 

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niko said:
Your contradicting yourself here just a little bit.

One of your main reasons why Marciano is so great is because of his record.

Now your saying Maxims record won't tell you all that much because all his opponents aren't known.
You misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I had meant that YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE KNOWN much about Joey Maxin's opponents except for maybe the one you'd mentioned (Floyd Patterson) was what I was really trying to say.

I don't say that Joey Maxin was the greatest light heavyweight champion of all time. I just say he was one of the greats. And when I think of those who were greatest light heavyweight champions his is always one of the names that comes to mind. Because Joey Maxin was one of the greats.

Joey Maxin had beaten legends, for example, Jersey Joe Walcott, John Bivins, and Floyd Patterson.

You mentioned Sugar Ray Robinson. He fought Sugar Ray too.

On June 25, 1952, Joey Maxin had successfully defended his title against Sugar Ray Robinson.

Sugar Ray had some fights in the light heavyweight division too.

Joey Maxin was a great fighter and champion. He was one of the greats.

niko said:
The way a fighter is guided is very important in getting the most and the best out of him.

Many of your past fighters fought because they were hungry, and many times over matched.
Not many, but ALL were hungry for fortune and fame. Other wise, there's no reason for an amateur boxer to turn pro. I say amatuer boxer, for that's from where the pros came from the amatuer ranks. If they weren't hungry for fortune and fame there's no reason to turn pro.

niko said:
This could account for records not looking impressive.
So often when fight fans today hear names of fighters that were before their time that they aren't really all that familiar with naturally they aren't going to be impressed unless they do search on that fighter.

Sometimes I hear fights fans today to even call a lot of fighters who were even contenders bums for laughing out loud. Bums didn't get to be contenders much less to become champions, and especially not in Joey Maxin's time there. It was 1940s and 1950s that produced the most over all talent in boxing's weight divisions.

JJC
 

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niko said:
Many of your past fighters ... many times over matched.
I meant to comment on this but forgot.

If your saying many of the past fighters were over matched in comparison with fighters today.

It may be that it could have happened more often in past eras in boxing than today, that may be, however. In Joey Maxin's time there the 1940s and 1950s are the years in which boxing produced more over all talent in the weight divisions.

There were better and more talented fighters in those years in boxing in the 1940s and 1950s over all in the weight divisons than at any other time in the history of gloved boxing.

In Joey Maxin's time there the 1940s and 1950s, there were more fighters in boxing who had an extraordinary heart and dedication.

Boxing as a sport was much different than it is today. There wasn't all the trash talking of fighters of today. They did all their talking with their fists in the ring. There was no need for them to going around shooting their mouths off to draw attention to themselves to build the gate as they do it today. The over all greatest fights in the weight divisons in gloved boxing history were in the 1940s and 1950s.

Boxing doesn't produce great fighters any more in the over all weight divisons today that it did in Joey Maxim's time there.

Today's boxing is entertainment; there's a lot of promotion, a lot of glitz. The big shows are put on before fights, but once they get inside the ring too many of the performances are mediorce.

The promotion is one of the big things of boxing today. Its all about building the fight up, creating a lot of drama, doing a lot of hype on televison and getting the public's interest to a peak.

That wasn't so nescessary in boxing in the 1940s and 1950s, for boxing drew by far more attention as a sport was by far a more popular sport in those days.

Boxing in those days attracted the most talented of American athletes. Today, it doesn't but back in those days it did.

If you got mostly mediocre fighters in the weight divisions, of course, there's going to be less problem of fighters being mismatched.

Primarily, the reason for fighters to be mismatched occasionly in those days would be for reasons a manager and trainer of a fighter may had thought their fighter was ready to be moved up to face better competition before their fighter may had really be ready for it.

Perhaps one of the worst examples I could give as for a mismatch back in the 1950s was a friend of my father's at the time that was also a fighter, who turned pro and had only about 5 or 6 pro fights, and the guy's handler and trainer carried the guy too fast, and matched him up with another fighter who was a contender, and the guy got his jaw broke, and lost the fight by being knocked down, and the guy got so discouraged over it that it ruined him and he never fought again after that fight.

Things such as that can happen if a fighter is carried too fast by his handler and trainer, and especially so with the more over all talent there were in the weight divisons back it those days.

If those days were before your time of course, it going to be hard for you to be able to relate and to understand the way it really was back in boxing in those days.

Boxing is not the sport today that it was in the 1940s and 1950s much has changed in boxing since those days. Amatuer boxers have to really be salty to turn pro ... its a really tough business, and most especially it was in boxing in the 1940s and 1950s for reasons there was by far more over all talent and better fighters in the weight divisions back in those days.

You had to really be salty, I mean REALLY salty to turn pro back in those days in boxing, and also in past boxing era's before that time also.

JJC
 

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The Auctioneer said:
Tommy, no question RJJ,in his prime, was a world class athlete,however as compaired to Moore,RJJ career won't be as long and he won't be a champ in his "old age".
no roys carrer wont be as long as archies but he was lightheavyweight champion for longer than him, after all if you judged everything on carrer lengh archie would be the undisputed p4p best.

rjj-8 years
moore-6 years
 

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JJC
Your speeches(Written)are so long that
I forget what my original post is.(smile)You said **** Tiger was one of your choices for a great LT Heavy.The longest and best part of Tiger was at middleweight.Only a short last part of his career was he a LT Heavy.I remember his's bouts with many top middles.Notible-Giardelo&Fullmer.He had his share of losses.He was a fine middle,he pretty much held his own.In my opinion he did not fight long enough in the lightheavy division to be called one of its greatest.He will be best known as a middle.
 

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niko said:
You said D-ick Tiger was one of your choices for a great LT Heavy.
That's right!

Your reference is to me having said. "In my veiw, Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Joey Maxin, Archie Moore, D-ick Tiger, and Bob Foster were the greatest light heavyweight fighters in the history of gloved boxing.


niko said:
The longest and best part of Tiger was at middleweight.
Your right!

I saw a lot of D-ick Tiger's fights back in the 1960s.

Back in 1960s, here the fights were regularly televised weekly. I saw D-ick Tiger fight many times when I was a kid. D-ick Tiger was one of my favorite fighters.


niko said:
Only a short last part of his career was he a LT Heavy.
Your right! But he also had near 20 pro fights as a light heavyweight too.

niko said:
I remember his's bouts with many top middles.

Notible-Giardelo & Fullmer.

He had his share of losses.
Didn't they all?

How many did he lose as a light heavyweight?

He won near all of them.

Rocky Marciano was the only world champion of any weight divison in the history of gloved boxing to have completed a professional career without a loss.


niko said:
He was a fine middle, he pretty much held his own.

In my opinion he did not fight long enough in the lightheavy division to be called one of its greatest.
D-ick Tiger had very near 20 pro fights as a light heavyweight.

All those fighters I mentioned Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Joey Maxin, Arhie Moore, D-ick Tiger, and Bob Foster were stars, superior light heavyweights of what many veiw as the Golden Era of Boxing, the 1940s through 1980s.

niko said:
He will be best known as a middle.
Your right!

But he was also one of the stars of that period, one of the greats as a light heavyweight too.

D-ick Tiger was superior middleweight of that period, and also a superior light-heavyweight of the period too.

Take Sugar Ray Robinson, for example in that period which many call the Golden Era of Boxing.

Sugar Ray was a superior welterweight, and middleweight.

Sugar Ray was one of greats a welterweight, and also as a middleweight too.

Many say the Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest all-around fighter of all-time.

Sugar Ray didn't win all his fights either.

JJC
 

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JCC said:
You say.

.

Joey Maxin had beaten legends, for example, Jersey Joe Walcott, John Bivins, and Floyd Patterson.

JJC[/QUOTE
He also lost to Jimmy Bivins and Walcott twice,not to mention numerous losses to Moore and Charles. I guess he was just in the wrong era.Patterson was a raw kid when Maxim got the decsion.
 

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maxim was good not great in 100 or so fight carrer he never strung more than 12 wins in a row together. and he lost to some very ordinary fighters.
 

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JCC said:
That's right!

Your reference is to me having said. "In my veiw, Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Joey Maxin, Archie Moore, D-ick Tiger, and Bob Foster were the greatest light heavyweight fighters in the history of gloved boxing.




Your right!

I saw a lot of D-ick Tiger's fights back in the 1960s.

Back in 1960s, here the fights were regularly televised weekly. I saw D-ick Tiger fight many times when I was a kid. D-ick Tiger was one of my favorite fighters.




Your right! But he also had near 20 pro fights as a light heavyweight too.



Didn't they all?

How many did he lose as a light heavyweight?

He won near all of them.

Rocky Marciano was the only world champion of any weight divison in the history of gloved boxing to have completed a professional career without a loss.




D-ick Tiger had very near 20 pro fights as a light heavyweight.

All those fighters I mentioned Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Joey Maxin, Arhie Moore, D-ick Tiger, and Bob Foster were stars, superior light heavyweights of what many veiw as the Golden Era of Boxing, the 1940s through 1980s.



Your right!

But he was also one of the stars of that period, one of the greats as a light heavyweight too.

D-ick Tiger was superior middleweight of that period, and also a superior light-heavyweight of the period too.

Take Sugar Ray Robinson, for example in that period which many call the Golden Era of Boxing.

Sugar Ray was a superior welterweight, and middleweight.

Sugar Ray was one of greats a welterweight, and also as a middleweight too.

Many say the Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest all-around fighter of all-time.

Sugar Ray didn't win all his fights either.

JJC
**** Tiger was 5'8'-5'9' never fought at 170 he was not a natural lightheavy.Yes he won the title but to be called a GREAT lightheavy is going a little to far in my book.
He fought lightheavy from about late 60s to 70s not enough time for 20 fights. I didn't say Tiger would have to win all his fights to be a decent fighter,but His record and Robinsons record not even close.
 

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niko said:
He also lost to Jimmy Bivins and Walcott twice, not to mention numerous losses to Moore and Charles.
Joey Maxin lost his first fight with Jimmy Bivins, but in their rematch, or second time they fought Joey defeated defeated Jimmy.

So depending on how you want to look at it. Bivins doesn't hold a legitmate win over Maxin in a certian sense.

Maxin had three fights with Joe Walcott, and won one out of three.

Hey, Bivins and Walcott were great fighters.

niko said:
I guess he was just in the wrong era.
Maybe its just because he was before your time, and you aren't all that familiar with him as a fighter. Therefore, your not impressed with Joey Maxin as a fighter.

Maybe your idea of what is a great fighter is different, or even very different than mine.

niko said:
Patterson was a raw kid when Maxim got the decsion.
I'll take another look at it again. But I don't think so. It was only a year or two later that Floyd Patterson had won title becoming the heavyweight champion of the world I think as best I remember.

And that was also a time that these titles really meant much more than today.

At that time we had eight divisions and eight world champions instead of more than a 100 so-called champs. It had been a time before we came to have all these weak, watered-down weight divisions we have today.

As I come to have time I'll post again, and tell you why I consider Joey Maxin a great fighter.

JCC
 

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tommygunn said:
maxim was good not great in 100 or so fight carrer he never strung more than 12 wins in a row together. and he lost to some very ordinary fighters.
Ordinary, fighters?

Since when have contenders and champions been ordinary fighters?

But in being your only 24 years old, I can see how you could think that way.

Of course, today, we have a lot of what could be called ordinary fighters, or even medoicre fighters that are contenders and so-called champs too today that are.

But that wasn't so much so in boxing in the 1940s and 1950s, like it is today.

There were no ordinary, average, or mediorce fighters like today, that were contenders or so-called champs.

Fighters that were just average, and that were champions were not usually just average fighters or mediorce fighters in the weight divisions in those days.

Just your average, or mediocre fighters usually didn't get to be contenders in those days, much less to be champions like they do today.

It was a different time, and there was by far more over all talent in the weight divisons boxing in those days.

JJC
 

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orlando trotter, brooker beckworth, charley roth, altus allen, curtis shepard (who also fought moore but was never a contender or champ) these are just a few of the nomads he lost to ill do a bit digging to find more.

being 24 has nothing to do with knowledge past or present, ive watched literaly thousands of fights from every era and read books on all the fighters past and present.

but i agree with what your saying about fighters from the past that were contenders beating fighters today who are regarded as champs. there are to many watered down versions of so called world champions who back in the era of 40's to the 70's would not have been quoted on world level. but there are also fighters of the last 20 years who would have not had a problem hanging in those era's either.

when you look at todays hw division in particular it is prob the worst in history,a paterson, liston, ali, frazier, foreman, norton, shavers, holmes or tyson would be walking about with all the gold.

i like to think im a bit of a historian.
 

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niko said:
Tiger was 5'8'-5'9' never fought at 170 he was not a natural lightheavy.
Your right as for his height.

But your wrong in part as for part as for what you had over all said.

Back in those days, of course, there were only eight weight divisons.

To fight as a middleweight you could not weigh more than 160 pounds. That was weight limit in the middleweight division.

niko said:
Yes he won the title but to be called a GREAT lightheavy is going a little to far in my book.


He fought lightheavy from about late 60s to 70s not enough time for 20 fights.
D-ick Tiger fought light heavyweight in the 1950s too.

Tiger had 20 pro fights a light heavyweight during his professional career.

Tiger fought back and forth between the middleweight and light heavyweight divisions through out much of his professional career.

niko said:
I didn't say Tiger would have to win all his fights to be a decent fighter, but His record and Robinsons record not even close.
No one is agruing that D-ick Tiger was a greater fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson.

By the way, as for your earlier mentioning of Joey Maxin.

Joey Maxin successfully defended his light heavyweight title against Sugar Ray Robinson in 1952.

JJC
 

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tommygunn said:
orlando trotter, brooker beckworth, charley roth, altus allen, curtis shepard (who also fought moore but was never a contender or champ) these are just a few of the nomads he lost to ill do a bit digging to find more.
Sometimes when you do research on fighters that you may not be familiar, or not all that familair with that were before your time. You may find some of them to have been great fighters.

tommygunn said:
being 24 has nothing to do with knowledge past or present.
The older I get, the less I realize I know.

tommyyoung said:
ive watched literaly thousands of fights from every era and read books on all the fighters past and present.
That began with me also when I was just a kid, in the early 1960s when I first took up boxing.

I continued to box amatuer until the early 1970s into my early twenties.

After I stopped boxing, I remained interested in the sport, and kept up with what was going on, and watched the fights and attended the fights.

But when boxing changed and it came to have all these watered down divisions, such as the WBA, WBC,WBO, and WBF, each with its own so-called champion, that's when I began to lose interest and to not keep up much with it any more.

But as for boxing the way it was, the way I liked it. I still like boxing.

Only, boxing the way it was, the way I liked it, is no more.

tommygunn said:
but i agree with what your saying about fighters from the past that were contenders beating fighters today who are regarded as champs.

there are to many watered down versions of so called world champions who back in the era of 40's to the 70's would not have been quoted on world level.

but there are also fighters of the last 20 years who would have not had a problem hanging in those era's either.

when you look at todays hw division in particular it is prob the worst in history, a paterson, liston, ali, frazier, foreman, norton, shavers, holmes or tyson would be walking about with all the gold.
I think your right!

They say as the heavyweight divison goes so goes the sport of boxing.


tommygunn said:
i like to think im a bit of a historian.
I think you are.

JJC
 

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JCC said:
.
Maybe its just because he was before your time, and you aren't all that familiar with him as a fighter


.
I got news for you,if he was before my time he was definitely before yours.You may be somewhat of a scholar on boxing info,but I have a feeling I have a few years on you.
Wednesday nights-What'll you have
PapstBlue Ribbon.

Fridays- Gillett Calvicade of Sports.
Tony DeMarco,Carman Basilio,Johnny Saxton,Gil Turner,Gasper" indian" Ortega Ralph "tiger" Jones,Joey Giambra,Joey Giardello.Spider Webb etc,I could go on and on I forgot what I ate last night but I'll never forget those fighters of the fiftys and sixys


Niko
 

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niko said:
I got news for you, if he was before my time he was definitely before yours.
Not meaning to give you a hard time. I enjoy reading your posts. (smiling)

niko said:
You may be somewhat of a scholar on boxing info ...
I'm no scholar, just an ex-fighter.

Punchy maybe! But a scholar, I'm not. (smiling)

niko said:
... but I have a feeling I have a few years on you.
You may do!

I was 7 years old when Joey Maxin had his last pro fight in 1958.

My father was fighter, I grew up in the sport from the day I was born.

niko said:
Wednesday nights-What'll you have
PapstBlue Ribbon.
I remember it.


niko said:
Fridays- Gillett Calvicade of Sports.
Tony DeMarco, Carman Basilio, Johnny Saxton, Gil Turner, Gasper" indian" Ortega Ralph "tiger" Jones, Joey Giambra, Joey Giardello. Spider Webb etc, I could go on and on I forgot what I ate last night but I'll never forget those fighters of the fiftys and sixites.
Some big names, and good names.

As for your earlier mention of the papst Blue Ribbon?

I'll go for that too. (smiling)

JCC
 

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orlando trotter. 11-7-1.
booker beckworth. 26-8
charley roth. 17-29

altus allen. 19-9-1

clarence brown. 20-23-3
curtis sheppard 52-33.

just some of the guys records who beat maxim.
 
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