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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So where does he rank now?

Notable Wins:
Ricardo Mayorga
Pernell Whitaker
Fernando Vargas
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Ike Quartey
Julio Ceasar Chavez
Arturo Gatti

Questionable Wins:
Felix Sturm

Notable Losses:
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley (x2)
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao

Questionable Losses:
Shane Mosley (2nd fight)
Felix Trinidad
Floyd Mayweather Jr (not really questionable, just really close)

Well from this we can see that where it matters most, Oscar seems to lose. Felix Trinidad is a controversial decision, I mean I scored it 115-113 to Oscar.. but I don't think Tito deserved the win at all and that's coming from a HUGE Tito fan. Both Mosley fights were close, but the second one was without doubt an Oscar fight. The Mayweather fight was close, and could have gone either way but I don't think there is much room for debate about the final decision. So now we have the questionable losses out of the way.. we see tht Oscar holds losses to every notable (and prime) opponent of his. Trinidad was prime, Mosley was prime, Hopkins was slightly post-prime (but not much), Floyd Mayweather was prime and Pacquiao is now prime. Oscar simply has not done it when it matters most. Wins over Mayorga (B Level), a 33-year old and post prime Pernell Whitaker, the shot Chavez, the B- level fighter in Gatti and a B level Gonzalez don't cut it. His wins over Vargas and Quartey are his most impressive.. I rate Quartey highly and I thought Vargas was still good despite his defeat to Tito. His win over Sturm is disputed and I scored it 115-113 for Sturm. So when you look at it... Oscar's resume isn't all that special. He's fought the best, but he hasn't beaten the best and that's what matters most. So where does Oscar rank? Having lost (on paper) every major fight of his career.. what does that say about how great he really is?
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
So where does he rank now?

Notable Wins:
Ricardo Mayorga
Pernell Whitaker
Fernando Vargas
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Ike Quartey
Julio Ceasar Chavez
Arturo Gatti

Questionable Wins:
Felix Sturm

Notable Losses:
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley (x2)
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao

Questionable Losses:
Shane Mosley (2nd fight)
Felix Trinidad
Floyd Mayweather Jr (not really questionable, just really close)

Well from this we can see that where it matters most, Oscar seems to lose. Felix Trinidad is a controversial decision, I mean I scored it 115-113 to Oscar.. but I don't think Tito deserved the win at all and that's coming from a HUGE Tito fan. Both Mosley fights were close, but the second one was without doubt an Oscar fight. The Mayweather fight was close, and could have gone either way but I don't think there is much room for debate about the final decision. So now we have the questionable losses out of the way.. we see tht Oscar holds losses to every notable (and prime) opponent of his. Trinidad was prime, Mosley was prime, Hopkins was slightly post-prime (but not much), Floyd Mayweather was prime and Pacquiao is now prime. Oscar simply has not done it when it matters most. Wins over Mayorga (B Level), a 33-year old and post prime Pernell Whitaker, the shot Chavez, the B- level fighter in Gatti and a B level Gonzalez don't cut it. His wins over Vargas and Quartey are his most impressive.. I rate Quartey highly and I thought Vargas was still good despite his defeat to Tito. His win over Sturm is disputed and I scored it 115-113 for Sturm. So when you look at it... Oscar's resume isn't all that special. He's fought the best, but he hasn't beaten the best and that's what matters most. So where does Oscar rank? Having lost (on paper) every major fight of his career.. what does that say about how great he really is?
*Sues for copyright infringement* :cop:

Just kidding... :laugh:

We need to add to the notable wins list, and the questionable losses list, but for now I'll just talk about where he ends up being ranked. Can't take away his 6 division World Championships, can't take away the solid victories he did in fact have, but we can penalize him for coming up short against the best. He barely makes the top 100 ATG list. He's below many of the fighter's he actually fought. He's below Whitaker, below Chavez, below Mosley, below Tito, below Hopkins, and below Mayweather. Like Whitaker said long after his retirement, Oscar is a B+ fighter. But, he competed with more ATGs than anyone in his era. In the quality of opposition department, Oscar receives a perfect 10. In the quality of performance department, Oscar gets an 8. You average the two together and you get a B+/A- fighter.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
*Sues for copyright infringement* :cop:

Just kidding... :laugh:

We need to add to the notable wins list, and the questionable losses list, but for now I'll just talk about where he ends up being ranked. Can't take away his 6 division World Championships, can't take away the solid victories he did in fact have, but we can penalize him for coming up short against the best. He barely makes the top 100 ATG list. He's below many of the fighter's he actually fought. He's below Whitaker, below Chavez, below Mosley, below Tito, below Hopkins, and below Mayweather. Like Whitaker said long after his retirement, Oscar is a B+ fighter. But, he competed with more ATGs than anyone in his era. In the quality of opposition department, Oscar receives a perfect 10. In the quality of performance department, Oscar gets an 8. You average the two together and you get a B+/A- fighter.
Haha, I was in the process of PMing you about using your format, but my PC just reset on me :confused:
I agree with what you said in that post. His level of opposition is something that can't be debated. His ten world titles in six weight categories is a great achievement to. Even if the sixth world title is questionable.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
I added in names to the resume, it's actually rather long:

Notable Wins:
Jorge Paez <over the hill>
John John Molina
Rafael Ruelas
Genaro Hernandez
Jesse James Leija
Julio Ceasar Chavez (x2) <over the hill>
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Pernell Whitaker <past his prime>
Hector Camacho <past his prime>
Ike Quartey
Oba Carr <past his prime>
Arturo Gatti
Javier Castillejo <past his prime>
Luis Ramon Campas <past his prime>
Fernando Vargas
Felix Sturm
Ricardo Mayorga

Notable Losses:
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley (x2)
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao

Questionable Wins:
Ike Quartey
Pernell Whitaker
Felix Sturm

Questionable Losses:
Shane Mosley (2nd fight)
Felix Trinidad
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I added in names to the resume, it's actually rather long:

Notable Wins:
Jorge Paez <over the hill>
John John Molina
Rafael Ruelas
Genaro Hernandez
Jesse James Leija
Julio Ceasar Chavez (x2) <over the hill>
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Pernell Whitaker <past his prime>
Hector Camacho <past his prime>
Ike Quartey
Oba Carr <past his prime>
Arturo Gatti
Javier Castillejo <past his prime>
Luis Ramon Campas <past his prime>
Fernando Vargas
Felix Sturm
Ricardo Mayorga

Notable Losses:
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley (x2)
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao

Questionable Wins:
Ike Quartey
Pernell Whitaker
Felix Sturm

Questionable Losses:
Shane Mosley (2nd fight)
Felix Trinidad
I think Oscar won the Quartey and Whitaker fights without question. They were both close, but I think they were justified decisions.

Genaro Hernandez
Jorge Paez
Hector Camacho <past his prime>

Three guys I can't believe I missed out. Especially Camacho since he's one of my favourites. Good list though, you definitely added to mine a hell of a lot :thumbsup:
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
I think Oscar won the Quartey and Whitaker fights without question. They were both close, but I think they were justified decisions.

Genaro Hernandez
Jorge Paez
Hector Camacho <past his prime>

Three guys I can't believe I missed out. Especially Camacho since he's one of my favourites. Good list though, you definitely added to mine a hell of a lot :thumbsup:
I base questionable losses on how the boxing world scored the fight, not how I scored it. I thought Calzaghe beat Hopkins clear enough (despite slapping to do it) and that Dawson beat Johnson clear enough, but I will always write them up as questionable wins since so many people felt strongly about it.

I did actually score the Quartey fight 114-113 for Ike tho. It was a snooze fest(outside 2-3 very exciting rounds), neither fighter did much. Wasn't much to pick from, I saw cleaner punches being landed by Quartey.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I base questionable losses on how the boxing world scored the fight, not how I scored it. I thought Calzaghe beat Hopkins clear enough (despite slapping to do it) and that Dawson beat Johnson clear enough, but I will always write them up as questionable wins since so many people felt strongly about it.

I did actually score the Quartey fight 114-113 for Ike tho. It was a snooze fest(outside 2-3 very exciting rounds), neither fighter did much. Wasn't much to pick from, I saw cleaner punches being landed by Quartey.
I see what you mean. Out of curiosity.. how did you score the Whitaker fight? Hopkins/Calzaghe is a fight I scored 114-113 for Hopkins both times I've watched it. I always give Dawson the fight against Johnson.

For the record I can't remember how I scored the Quartey fight, I know I gave it to Oscar though.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
I see what you mean. Out of curiosity.. how did you score the Whitaker fight? Hopkins/Calzaghe is a fight I scored 114-113 for Hopkins both times I've watched it. I always give Dawson the fight against Johnson. So I see what you mean about the questionable losses/wins then.
I'd honestly have to re-watch the Whitaker fight..I recall giving it to DLH with a sour taste in my mouth.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'd honestly have to re-watch the Whitaker fight..I recall giving it to DLH with a sour taste in my mouth.
I'm going to watch Whitaker/Chavez soon. How Sweet Pea didn't win that fight is beyond me..
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
I just re-watched / re-scored the Whitaker vs DLH fight. I had a draw with that idiotic WBC pt deduction rule for any accidental headbutts. Take that rule away, Whitaker won the fight by 1 point. De La Hoya ate his jab all night long and Whitaker mostly clowned him when DLH tried to put together a decent combination as he dodged out of the way. Compubox told the tale, De La Hoya looked good while Whitaker was good.

Either way tho, razor thin fight that could have gone either way, hence why it's officially deemed questionable among the boxing world. I wonder what that fight would have looked like prime vs prime.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm watching now.. and everytime I watch it makes me even more pissed off that Whitaker was robbed. Chavez and Whitaker are two of my all time favourites, but I have no doubt that Whitaker won that fight without a doubt. It's alongside Holyfield/Lewis, De La Hoya/Trinidad, Leonard/Hearns II, Mosley/De La Hoya II and Santa Cruz/Casamyor as some of the worst decisions I've ever seen. I can go on about bad decisions aswell..
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I just re-watched / re-scored the Whitaker vs DLH fight. I had a draw with that idiotic WBC pt deduction rule for any accidental headbutts. Take that rule away, Whitaker won the fight by 1 point. De La Hoya ate his jab all night long and Whitaker mostly clowned him when DLH tried to put together a decent combination as he dodged out of the way. Compubox told the tale, De La Hoya looked good while Whitaker was good.

Either way tho, razor thin fight that could have gone either way, hence why it's officially deemed questionable among the boxing world. I wonder what that fight would have looked like prime vs prime.
Ok I've finished Whitaker/Chavez. I scored it 117-111 to Whitaker. He fought a great fight and how it ended up a draw will forever be beyond me.

I'll re-watch Whitaker/De La Hoya soon as well. Watching that fight makes me realise how great Whitaker was. He jabbed so well, his movement was great and made it hard for Chavez to hit him..and he was accurate with his shots in the fight. There is absolutely no chance Chavez even earned a drawn.

I think prime vs prime Whitaker beats De La Hoya. I think like you said a few posts ago, Whitaker was over the hill and he's among the best defensive fighters I've ever seen and I think he'd have beaten De La Hoya. It would have been close on the score cards, but still pretty clear.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
I'm going to be pullin hard for Mosley to beat Margarito now. It will leave no doubts that he was greater than Oscar in people's minds. All the other names I mentioned as greater than Oscar are a lock. Shane lacks wins over top rated opposition, mainly because people weren't lined up to fight him like they did for Oscar. I know in my heart he's better, but he's not been able to fully prove it yet.
 

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The Professor
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Do you rate Tito over DLH Obama?
Absolutely. Oscar may have bested Tito in their encounter, but when you compare the fights in common both of them have and overall dominance of their prime weight division (Welterweight), it's hands down in Tito's favor.

Then officially at the end of the day, Tito has only lost to 3 men, the #1 Junior Middleweight of his era, the #1 Middleweight, and the #1 LHW. All of which are making the hall of fame, and at least 2 are ATGs.
 

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The Professor
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Now that I think about it, I may end up striking Manny Pacquiao from DLH's notable losses in the future. No man that shot should have to be penalized for losing that fight. The only way I can see myself leaving it on there is if he ressurects his career like RJJ did, beating B level opposition and wiping the taste of being stopped off his lips. Hopefully if we do see Oscar again it will be at 154, a weight his body can actually manage effectively.

You might ask why is beating B level competition good enough? To put it simply, he hasn't beaten A level competition since Felix Sturm (and he didn't really win). Felix Sturm wasn't even considered A level until he whooped up on DLH. Anyhow the Sturm fight was back in 2004. He can go back to simply being competitive with A level fighters and not be completely written off yet. I do believe the weight is mostly to blame for the terrible performance.
 

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Calvarez
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7,453 Posts
Now that I think about it, I may end up striking Manny Pacquiao from DLH's notable losses in the future. No man that shot should have to be penalized for losing that fight. The only way I can see myself leaving it on there is if he ressurects his career like RJJ did, beating B level opposition and wiping the taste of being stopped off his lips. Hopefully if we do see Oscar again it will be at 154, a weight his body can actually manage effectively.

You might ask why is beating B level competition good enough? To put it simply, he hasn't beaten A level competition since Felix Sturm (and he didn't really win). Felix Sturm wasn't even considered A level until he whooped up on DLH. Anyhow the Sturm fight was back in 2004. He can go back to simply being competitive with A level fighters and not be completely written off yet. I do believe the weight is mostly to blame for the terrible performance.
Exactly. And it's the same with Jones IMHO.
 

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Spike Spiegel
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7,078 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Now that I think about it, I may end up striking Manny Pacquiao from DLH's notable losses in the future. No man that shot should have to be penalized for losing that fight. The only way I can see myself leaving it on there is if he ressurects his career like RJJ did, beating B level opposition and wiping the taste of being stopped off his lips. Hopefully if we do see Oscar again it will be at 154, a weight his body can actually manage effectively.

You might ask why is beating B level competition good enough? To put it simply, he hasn't beaten A level competition since Felix Sturm (and he didn't really win). Felix Sturm wasn't even considered A level until he whooped up on DLH. Anyhow the Sturm fight was back in 2004. He can go back to simply being competitive with A level fighters and not be completely written off yet. I do believe the weight is mostly to blame for the terrible performance.
Exactly. And it's the same with Jones IMHO.
Well I agree aswell. I don't think a shot fighter should be penalised for a loss. I think if you look at Pacquiaos notable wins, De La Hoya should always be on it because of how he done it and the odds that were against him. However I wouldn't consider it a big loss on De La Hoya's record and I'm somebody who doesn't believe that any loss should erase a fighters legacy.
 

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The Professor
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8,572 Posts
Now...a loss is still a loss now. If De La Hoya keeps fighting and adds another notable name on that resume you HAVE to count the Pacman loss. If a fighter comes in weight drained it's on them, their legacy is held accountable.

Basically, I'm not writing Oscar off yet. Weighing in at 154 and fighting at 165 very well may do him wonders.
 
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