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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My question is why does everybody seem to think Hatton and Cotto are Great fighters? That they are part of that Elite class i hear so much about. I'm sorry, but if Cotto and Hatton are considered Elite class, then the question that is begging to be asked is "Is the Elite class really Elite?". Im not saying that they are not capable of reaching Elite status, what I'm saying is that i think way to many people are jumping the gun. I mean, neither of these guys have fought much good opposition. Seems each guy has spent a lot of time just knocking out journey men to beef up records.
Lets count it out, Cotto's top two opponents are... Zab Judah and Paulie Malignaggi. I think its fair to say that neither of them are Top level elite class guys. AS much as i like Paulie he's not even close to becoming elite class and i don't think he ever has a chance to make it there. And on top of that Paulies style was MADE for Cotto. I mean, the biggest chip in Cotto's armor is his chin, So of course they're going to choose a guy, that couldn't knock an old lady out. Next Zab. Zab was Cotto's biggest test so far. And in there fight both guys did what they always do. Zab fought hard for the first 4 rounds then completely gave up and went into "Just survive till the end" mode. And Cotto after getting hurt threw 2 OUTRAGEOUSLY low blows to stop his opponent and give himself some time to recover. Watch the replays of those low blows, and if you have half of a brain you can see that they are NOT accidental. Zab was his best opponent and Zab isn't that good, even in Zab last outing on Friday Night Fights (last week) he went up against a guy that was 20 and 10 (i think thats right) and even against him Zab Looked OK at best, it went all 10 rounds, if he was as good as he used to be, it shouldn't have gone past 2 rounds.
And now Hatton. Again i like the guy, but his best opposition has been Kosta Tszyu and Luis Castillo. First, Castillo was a shot fighter. it was frightfully evident within the first 10 second of the first round that Castillo's legs were completely gone and any punch he threw had nothing on it. Maybe the body shot Hatton threw would have knocked out a prime Castillo anyway, but i don't think he would have been able to do it so easily, plus I'm pretty sure a fighter that has ANYTHING left would have gotten up for the count, Castillo gave up before it started. And Kosta, He's a good fighter, but Hatton didn't kick his ass or anything, he won the fight, but in poor style. And Id say Kosta was good, but you must remember Judah was walking all over him until he got cocky and Kosta knocked him out. So you cant say Kosta is GREAT.

I think to many people are just jumping on fighters and saying they are the best before they have faught even close to the best. I mean you look at fighters like De La Hoya, HE fought the best. His record includes 2 fights with Shane Moseley, Mayweather, Hopkins, Trinidad, Julio Ceaser Chavez twice, Gatti, Pernell Whitaker, Quartey, etc. He's faught Good opposition, it seems fighters are just trying to find the easiest way to get a belt and defend it against nobody's.
 

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IMO to be considered elite you need to beat elite and thats exactly what hatton done when he beat kostya, kostya was the #2 pound for pound fighter in the world behind bernard hopkins when hatton beat him.

hatton also moved up to welterweight and beat a very good fighter in collazo who was so much bigger and stronger than him winning a world title in his first fight at a new weight.

castillo had never been down in his career before and was a very proud fighter, that punch cracked 4 of his ribs to. although castillo was slightly past his best he was still rated at #10 pound for pound in the world at the time of the hatton fight so yes he was still an elite fighter.

hattons rated #6 pound for pound by ring magazine so of course he's an elite fighter.

i agree with what your saying about cotto though.

neither are great though, not yet anyway, hatton will come december though.
 

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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
WTF? Why re-open this thread? We already have this thread.
i think meltdown reposted it shane. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I dunno, i don't really agree with the pound for pound lists. I mean, they rate the best fighters at that moment in time right? P4P and Elite are very different things, I mean I wouldn't say that more than half of the Fighters on the Current Ring Magazine P4P list are elite. Even Kosta tszyu, he's a nice guy and a good fighter, but why was he #2 on the P4P list win hatton beat him? who did Kosta beat? Judah? Who else did he face to really earn that spot on the P4P? He beat good opposition, but never an elite guy. my point being on P4P and being elite are 2 way different things. If you were to make a list of Currently active elite boxers it would look nothing like the P4P lists.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
sorry i didn't see it got moved, i thought maybe it just didn't post or something when i clicked post. my bad.
 

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ok guys, those 2 posts are just stupid, im not even gonna debate with you on this one. :rolleyes:

come december the 8th we'll see how elite or not hatton is.
 

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Meltdown50 said:
sorry i didn't see it got moved, i thought maybe it just didn't post or something when i clicked post. my bad.
No worries man. I thought your post was right on point, and I agreed with it about 95%. Neither are elite, Tommy. There are only a handful of elite BOXERS.
 

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kostyas record, he's a shoe in hofer and a modern day legend, and thats regarded by all.

date Lb opponent Lb W - L - D last 6 location
2005-06-04 140 Ricky Hatton 139¾ 38-0-0
M.E.N. Arena, Manchester, Lancashire, United Kingdom L RTD 11 12
~ time: 3:00 | referee: Dave Parris | judge: Manuel Maritxalar 104-105 | judge: Alfred Asaro 103-106 | judge: Don Ackerman 102-107 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

2004-11-06 140 Sharmba Mitchell 140 55-3-0
Glendale Arena, Phoenix, Arizona, United States W TKO 3 12
~ time: 2:48 | referee: Raul Caiz | judge: Paul Artisst | judge: John Wright | judge: Howard Richey ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~
Mitchell was down four times.

2003-01-19 140 Jesse James Leija 139 43-5-2
Telstra Superdome, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia W TKO 6 12
~ time: 3:00 | referee: Malcolm Bulner | judge: Stanley Christodoulou 59-55 | judge: Noparat Scricharoen 58-56 | judge: Aneeka Williams 60-54 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
~ WBA light welterweight title ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~
Leija's corner stops the bout after 6th due to perforated right eardrum.

2002-05-18 140 Ben Tackie 139½ 24-2-0
Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12
~ referee: Jay Nady | judge: Duane Ford 119-108 | judge: Chuck Giampa 120-108 | judge: Bill Graham 120-108 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
~ WBA light welterweight title ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

2001-11-03 140 Zab Judah 139½ 27-0-0
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W TKO 2 12
~ time: 2:59 | referee: Jay Nady | judge: Duane Ford 9-10 | judge: John Keane 9-10 | judge: Glen Hamada 9-10 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
~ WBA light welterweight title ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

2001-06-23 139½ Oktay Urkal 138½ 28-0-0
Mohegan Sun Casino, Uncasville, Connecticut, United States W UD 12 12
~ referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Terry O'Connor 116-113 | judge: Julie Lederman 115-113 | judge: **** Flaherty 116-112 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
~ WBA light welterweight title ~

2001-02-03 139½ Sharmba Mitchell 139¾ 47-2-0
Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W TKO 7 12
~ time: 3:00 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Keith MacDonald 66-66 | judge: Daniel Van de Wiele 68-65 | judge: Chuck Giampa 68-64 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
~ WBA light welterweight title ~
Mitchell retires after 7th due to an injured knee.
Tszyu penalized one point in 4th for pushing.

2000-07-29 139½ Julio Cesar Chavez 140 103-4-2
Memorial Coliseum, Phoenix, Arizona, United States W TKO 6 12
~ time: 1:28 | referee: Robert Ferrara ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~

2000-02-12 139½ Ahmed Santos 139¾ 26-2-4
Mohegan Sun Casino, Uncasville, Connecticut, United States W TKO 8 12
~ time: 0:36 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Henry Elesperu 69-64 | judge: **** Flaherty 69-64 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 70-63 ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
Santos down twice in the 8th

1999-08-21 139½ Miguel Angel Gonzalez 139½ 43-1-1
Miccosukee Gaming Resort, Miami, Florida, United States W TKO 10 12
~ time: 0:48 | referee: Frank Santore Jr. | judge: John Keane 90-79 | judge: Don O'Neill 89-81 | judge: Chuck Williams 89-80 ~
~ vacant WBC light welterweight title ~
Gonzalez's trainer climbs up on the ring apron to force the stoppage.

1998-11-28 139 Diosbelys Hurtado 139¼ 28-1-0
Fantasy Springs Casino, Indio, California, United States W TKO 5 12
~ referee: James Jen-Kin ~
~ WBC light welterweight title ~
Interim Title
Hurtado down in 1st; Tszyu down twice in 1st.

1998-08-15 140 Rafael Ruelas 140 52-3-0
County Coliseum, El Paso, Texas, United States W TKO 9 12
~ time: 0:21 | referee: Luis Carlos Guzman | judge: Gale Van Hoy | judge: Jae-Bong Kim | judge: Garry Dean ~

1998-04-05 140¾ Calvin Grove 141 49-9-0
Newcastle Entertainment Centre, Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W KO 1 10
~ time: 2:59 | referee: Brian McMahon ~

1997-12-06 139¼ Ismael Armando Chaves 139 40-5-3
Stockland Stadium, Townsville, Queensland, Australia W TKO 3 12
~ time: 2:20 | referee: Arthur Mercante ~
WBC Light Welterweight Title eliminator

1997-05-31 140 Vince Phillips 140 35-3-0
Taj Mahal, Atlantic City, New Jersey, United States L TKO 10 12
~ time: 1:22 | referee: Benjy Esteves Jr. | judge: Des Bloyd 85-87 | judge: Melvina Lathan 86-85 | judge: Debra Barnes 85-85 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~
1997 Upset of the Year - Ring magazine

1997-01-18 139½ Leonardo Mas 139½ 23-2-0
Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States NC NC 1 12
~ referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Ray Wheatley | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Bill Graham ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1996-09-14 139½ Jan Piet Bergman 139¾ 32-0-0
Entertainment Centre, Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W KO 6 12
~ time: 1:23 | referee: Billy Males | judge: Ray Wheatley 48-47 | judge: Pete Podgorski 49-46 | judge: Stanley Christodoulou 48-47 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1996-05-24 139¾ Corey Johnson 140 20-1-1
Sydney Entertainment Centre, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W KO 4 12
~ time: 1:21 | referee: Billy Males ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1996-01-20 139¾ Hugo Pineda 139½ 27-0-1
Parramatta Stadium, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W TKO 11 12
~ time: 2:38 | referee: Billy Males | judge: Roque Garcia 95-90 | judge: Ray Wheatley 99-88 | judge: Joe Garcia 95-90 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1995-06-25 139½ Roger Mayweather 140 54-11-0
Newcastle Entertainment Centre, Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W UD 12 12
~ referee: Billy Males | judge: Paul Weitzel 119-109 | judge: Charlie Lucas 118-110 | judge: Pascual Ingusan 118-110 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1995-01-28 139½ Jake Rodriguez 139½ 26-2-2
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W TKO 6 12
~ time: 1:50 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Bernie Cormier 50-44 | judge: Don O'Neill 50-44 | judge: Chuck Giampa 49-44 ~
~ IBF light welterweight title ~

1994-08-29 140 Pedro Sanchez 140½ 26-1-2
National Tennis Centre, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia W TKO 4 10
1994-05-02 140½ Angel Hernandez 140¼ 40-1-2
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W TKO 7 10
1994-01-11 139¾ Hector Lopez 140¼ 26-2-1
Hyatt Regency, Tampa, Florida, United States W UD 10 10
~ referee: Brian Garry ~

1993-08-23 140 Livingstone Bramble 143 34-11-3
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W UD 10 10
~ referee: Brian McMahon | judge: Sid Fergins 99-91 | judge: Keith Dudley 99-90 | judge: Billy Mayo 99-90 ~
Bramble down in round 1.

1993-06-18 141¼ Robert Rivera 142¾ 18-2-1
Newcastle Entertainment Centre, Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W KO 1 10
~ time: 1:27 | referee: Billy Males ~

1993-05-14 141 Larry LaCoursiere 140 16-0-1
Newcastle Entertainment Centre, Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia W TKO 1 10
1993-01-30 141 Steve Larrimore 140 18-10-0
The Pyramid, Memphis, Tennessee, United States W TKO 2 0
1992-11-13 140¾ Sammy Fuentes 140½ 23-10-1
Festival Hall, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia W TKO 1 10
~ time: 0:54 | referee: Malcolm Bulner ~

1992-09-11 138½ Daniel Ricardo Cusato 139 16-1-0
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W TKO 7 10
1992-07-23 139½ Juan La Porte 138¼ 37-12-0
Darling Harbour Convention Cnt, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W UD 10 10
~ judge: Billy Males 100-89 | judge: Tony Rok 100-89 | judge: Keith Dudley 100-90 ~

1992-05-07 136½ Tony Jones 139¼ 18-6-0
Darling Harbour Convention Cen, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W TKO 2 10
~ time: 0:15 | referee: John Cauchi ~

1992-04-02 136½ Nedrick Simmons 136¾ 8-19-1
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia W KO 1 8
~ time: 0:58 ~

1992-03-01 138½ Darrell Hiles 140½ 7-1-0
Princes Park Football Ground, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia W TKO 1 8
 

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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
I never said Kostya wasn't elite. He was elite for sure. I'm talking about Cotto and Hatton.
meltdown did.

and saying neither hatton or cotto are elite is laughable shane, im sure not 1 other person on the board would agree with you there.
 

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Well we will see. I agree with Melt that until they have an A level win they cannot be considered Elite. I would definitely say that Hatton is closer than Cotto. Both of them could take the elite status by winning their next fight. If Cotto gets by Shane Mosley I'd say he is elite. I don't even need to comment on the latter of the two fights.
 

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Now, I must say that both Cotto and Hatton are A-Level guys. I just can not call them elite. That is my opinion regarding MY definition of the term elite. Other people's definition may differ and that is fine.
 

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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
Well we will see. I agree with Melt that until they have an A level win they cannot be considered Elite. I would definitely say that Hatton is closer than Cotto. Both of them could take the elite status by winning their next fight. If Cotto gets by Shane Mosley I'd say he is elite. I don't even need to comment on the latter of the two fights.
so your saying kostya wasn't an elite fighter? :confused: :confused: :confused:
 

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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
He WAS A level, but IMO he wasn't when he fought Hatton, obviously.
had he showen any signs of fading? no he hadn't so that comment means jack!
 

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PrettyBoyFloyd said:
Yes, in the Mitchell fight and in the Hatton fight. Prime Kostya would have killed Hatton.
you obviously havent seen the sharmba fights if your saying that, i have both and have watched them many times and kostya was briliant in both fights!

you tell me what kostya done that made him look even slightly past in against sharmba, i need a laugh tonight. :rolleyes:
 
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